Is ISO 9001 Cresting? Is a rebellion in the works?

[Al Dyer]

These statements go the the heart of the situation, Top Management must be involved if it is going to work, maybe not directly but at least supportively.

If the president (or whatever title) does not want to be involved, that is their decision.

In my mind the Management Rep., or whomever is in charge of implementing the system needs the backing of management and the ongoing support of the methods used.

Also, the person in charge of implementing the system needs to have a thick skin and be able to stand up to whomever is not on board. Including the president.

Realize:

-Management/Owners want profit.
-They hire people to make them profit.
-Quality is not usually looked upon as a profit center.
-If it is proven that quality equals profit, no problem.
-If it can't be proven that Quality actually saves in the long run, you are in the wrong company.

Get creative and prove that good quality, in products as well as processes, are not just a break even point but can also be a profit center.

 

[Al the Elf]

The Cheapest way

Energy

Ever thought of it this way...

Your customer requires you to deliver "fit for purpose" products and be ISO9000 accredited at the lowest possible cost.

Your company believes it knows how to make fit for purpose products at lowest cost - you have a line of satisfied customers buying from you. However it may well be that the cheapest way to get a 9K certificate, is to get one person (you) to handle all the stuff you have to do to pull the wool over the auditors eyes and get the badge. Go out and find one of Comrade Wades "purchasable" auditors.

It strikes me you've got choices :

1) Go with the flow - implement things in such a way that you do most of it and everyone else has to do the minimum. This seems to be what your colleagues expect.
2) Make the case that a continuous examination of processes can yield bottom line benefit. Then embed ISO, as most of it looks like stuff that has to happen anyway if a customer order is ever to be fulfilled.
3) Make the case to scrap it. In our experience most customers will commercially negotiate the value of an accredited supplier vs the price.
4) Get a customer to identify which bits of ISO9001 are the critical elements to them. That gives you a nice lever.
5) Get a customer to audit you - that'll really get the attention of the big bods.

I don't doubt there are other ways forward...

Cheers, Al

 

[barb butrym]

energy...sounds like you have the consultant from ****...sounds like the same people that screwed me out of my "dream job of a lifetime" a couple years back...hind sight...glad they did LOL. Bet the selling factor was that Guarantee thing????????? gets them every time. That and the "name" of the firm..... Too bad the prospective clients don't see the forest for the trees...we all basically guarantee our work and stay till the fat lady sings.......
Shame on them for allowing that to happen, doesn't matter to the consultant he gets paid by the firm anyway...the firm may only get expenses, but he gets paid........so what does he care?

The job i quoted was for 9+ companies within a large corporation on one site (thousands of souls, over 2K under 4K....I forget how many now...), a 9K2K and QS update 1 year target and 14K implementation over 3 years...pilot done in 1 year. I quoted about 90 days, I think (after a one day visit, 4 people/experts collecting info), Included training, consulting, auditing, impact etc etc........they quoted 20 days and guaranteed it. Their day rate was more than twice mine...the9K/2K and QS isn't even done yet, they failed the qs audits, 14K is barely started, the pilot isn't even done, ...........this was over 2 years ago.......2K was still at 1st draft. the guy still comes in........pays a monthly visit and goes away....assignments not done??????????

<splat> sorry that was me falling off the box again!!!!!!

I have no words of wisdom...sorry...what pieces to the puzzle are you missing?

 

[Mike S.]

barb butrym said:

energy...sounds like you have the consultant from ****...sounds like the same people that screwed me out of my "dream job of a lifetime" a couple years back...hind sight...glad they did LOL. Bet the selling factor was that Guarantee thing????????? gets them every time. That and the "name" of the firm..... Too bad the prospective clients don't see the forest for the trees...we all basically guarantee our work and stay till the fat lady sings.......
Shame on them for allowing that to happen, doesn't matter to the consultant he gets paid by the firm anyway...the firm may only get expenses, but he gets paid........so what does he care?
________________________
Barb,

Maybe you know something about Energy's situation that I don't. Why do you say he has a "consultant from he**"? Why are the problems Energy faces the consultant's fault? Energy said " Maybe you missed it but we do have a consultant. I don't want to repeat the whole story, but he is also ineffective because he comes in once a month, when we let him, and they think it's a joke. He is treated with respect. You know the song "Smiling Faces"? They can't wait until he leaves so they can back to work. He's been paid in full, is committed to stay with us until the end. Whenever that is. He's done all he can."

Sounds to me like it is lack of management committment that is the main problem here, not a bad consultant. Am I missing something?

Mike S.

 

[energy]

Right on

Mike,

You read really good. In additon, I didn't pick him. Top Management did. I happen to think he did a good job, under the circumstances. Some body said it right, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it a Jacka**!"

Barb,

As I have said before to Marc, he and (possibly you) would have walked because of the lack of cooperation. Or, you may have stayed until you got paid. Like, if you want to pay me and waste your money, hand it over. Would you forego the cash when nobody is blaming you for not getting the job done? One more time, it's not the Consultant's fault. It's ours.

 

[barb butrym]

ya gotta forgive me, I fell offf the box!!!!!


I read my frame of mind into the post....sorry!!! You both are right
...I need to buy better soap.....anyone know of a good supplier that warranties the box?

 

[energy]

Re: ya gotta forgive me, I fell offf the box!!!!!

barb butrym said:


I read my frame of mind into the post....sorry!!! You both are right
...I need to buy better soap.....anyone know of a good supplier that warranties the box?

barb,

Not necessary. You called it as you see it. If I had my choice I would have chosen a more dynamic type of consultant. I had to slap myself a couple of times to stay awake. But, whoever was chosen would have a struggle trying to change our company culture. But, there have been some recent new twists to our situation. When I have more time I will post a rather long rendition of what I see is a new ray of light on a, up to now, dark situation. We have a new Sheriff in town!

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

Revolt!

I've been away for awhile... so I'm joining in the discussion late.

One thing I have not read is that if ISO performs an internal audit on themselves, would they pass? I mean isn't ISO suppose to continuously improve by publishing new standards every 4 years? (I guess you could call going from 7 years between revisions to 6 year continuous improvement). What about all the controversies that surrounded the draft, DIS, and official release? It certainly speak very highly of their "design" input-output process.

... just a thought.

 

[David Mullins]

and that's not all

1. Spaceman: the 2000 edition was on time. The 1994 version was 2 years late! I'm sure ISO can tell you when the next is programmed, but it's not before 2006 I believe (& I think it's 2008). But we must remain flexible like our systems!

 

[dave williams]

ISO Crash & Burn

Marc, the rebellion started in 2001, has continued to grow and 2004/5 could be a crash and burn for the ISO 9000 scheme. The Automotive Sector may be the exception.

Self Declaration and Un-accreditated Audits is the European direction, so it's just a matter of time.

You can blame the many unqualified Consultants who provided poor services, you can also blame the Registrars who do not provide any value, but I think you need to blame the Quality Industry.

ISO is now a dollars and cents game. Consultants and Registrars seem to be fighting for survival and subsequently face time with the Client has declined and so has the quality of the services.

To bad, I like the ISO 9001:2000. It's a good mix of discipline and performance. Maybe we will continue to use and sell consulting services to ISO 9001:2000, but we will call it something else.