Is ISO 9001 fully enough to manage a business?

Q

QAMTY

#1
Hi everybody

In managing a business, in your experience:

Do you think that adopting the 9001 standard to manage a business would it make it profitable and successful a company?

we know 9001 is focused in quality for products an services, but doesnt give direction as how to manage a business in the aspects to make it profitable, healthy finances,etc.

In fact, the Finance issues are not an important part in this standard.

What methods or practice should we follow to manage a business for that purpose? or is it enough with ISO, by complying with the current clauses?

Please share your thoughts.

Thanks
 
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somashekar

Staff member
Super Moderator
#2
A good and effective progressive business will thrive more certainly with the ISO 9001...
A bad and sinking business will sink more certainly with the ISO 9001...:cool:
 
Q

QAMTY

#4
Thanks Golfman25

But I have seen that some directors, do a full a complete strategy by using special analysis supported by tools and define with Objectives the business driving into ISO.
Also have several kpis to revise at certain times the planned way.into it also
manage the profits of the business,the cash flow,etc.

Obviously, additionally they consider what is around the business, the quality of the products and services.

While there are other type of management, the QMS is managed separated of the economical aspect.

They try to comply with the QMS, define general kpis pass audits and that´s all.
But in other side , they manage the economical aspect of the business, in fact they make financial analysis, follow-up to profits, sales forecasting,etc.

So they manage both issues separately.

In your experience, how convenient is to include the total management into 9001?
Is there a special reason to manage it separately?

Please give your point of view
 

normzone

Trusted Information Resource
#5
I've had a president who could see the company was headed downhill ask me if I could use ISO 9001 to drive sales.

I had to tell him that if he put documented processes in place to do what he wanted to have happen, I could audit those processes and verify their effective application. But that there was nothing in the standard about compelling effective salesmanship and quotas, only about ensuring that customer requirements were determined and met.
 

Mark Meer

Trusted Information Resource
#6
Distinguish between a certified system versus just adopting the principles.

Implementing a full-on certified system can be costly, and comes with a lot of overhead and maintenance, so might not give you any overall benefits if the company is running relatively smoothly to begin with.

Adopting the principles, however, and applying them to whatever processes you think could be improved is, in my opinion, a good idea. Establish some measurable objectives (these can be sales/financial related, efficiency related, whatever...), and controlled processes that have outputs for which you can gather data to gauge progress towards those objectives.

Objectives, controlled processes, and review of data allows you to monitor progress, identify areas for improvement, and tweak the controls to move you in the direction you want to go.
 

Golfman25

Trusted Information Resource
#7
Thanks Golfman25

But I have seen that some directors, do a full a complete strategy by using special analysis supported by tools and define with Objectives the business driving into ISO.
Also have several kpis to revise at certain times the planned way.into it also
manage the profits of the business,the cash flow,etc.

Obviously, additionally they consider what is around the business, the quality of the products and services.

While there are other type of management, the QMS is managed separated of the economical aspect.

They try to comply with the QMS, define general kpis pass audits and that´s all.
But in other side , they manage the economical aspect of the business, in fact they make financial analysis, follow-up to profits, sales forecasting,etc.

So they manage both issues separately.

In your experience, how convenient is to include the total management into 9001?
Is there a special reason to manage it separately?

Please give your point of view
Ideally there is seemless transition between your daily business management and ISO requirements. ISO should run in the background. Ideally you wouldn't even notice it.
 
Q

QAMTY

#8
Thanks, But I wonder where into the standard we can find elments to apply to economical aspects?
I think it could be possible using external practices, But implemented into iso, Is that what you meant?
Thanks
 

Marc

Hunkered Down for the Duration
Staff member
Admin
#9
<snip> In managing a business, in your experience: <snip>
Just out of curiosity, and maybe you have told us in another discussion thread here, but... Exactly what business are you in? I'm not interested in the company name or anything confidential.

I am not sure exactly what the situation is, but this has been discussed many times if you think about it. ISO 9001 is set of the most basic business practices. As in REALLY basic. Every business has aspects which ISO 9001 doesn't cover. As you mentioned, financials.

Have you reviewed, for example, Organization As An Extended System ? No business is just ISO 9001 requirements. That has never been the case. Typically a "successful" business is already compliant to ISO 9001 requirements.

Nor is ISO 9001 a "quality system" standard. Early on it was said to be, but today then have even been clear, which Sidney has said in many posts, (E.g.: One year to ISO 9001 and 14001 transition deadline. ISO "IAF communique" )
The intended primary beneficiary of ISO 9001 are supposed to be the customers of the organizations that follow and/or attain certification to ISO 9001. The intended benefit to the customers of the 9001-compliant organization is to provide confidence that the customers orders will be fulfilled to their expectations. As we all know, in the business world, having confidence that your supply chain will not drop the ball is priceless.

So, if there was undisputable evidence that suppliers that comply and/or are certified to ISO 9001 are better performing, the whole global customer chain would be flowing down ISO 9001 (and certification) at a much higher rate and we would not see developed economies such as the USA and the UK dropping the need for suppliers conformance to ISO 9001, as the ISO Survey data shows.
Note: "...confidence that the customers orders will be fulfilled to their expectations..." Now - To me that really means will the supplier provide product which a customer defines in a/the contract (and please don't forget Contract Review - There is a dedicated Contract Review firum) - Specifications they have to meet, material specifications, delivery schedules and typically many more specifics.

I bring this up because, at least in English, bringing in the word "expectations" can range widely. I can expect something, but if that expectation is not defined in a contract, through specifications, we can go wide afield.

What is important is how a company (or a person) determines what the specifications are to communicate to the seller. Not expectations, specifications. As a person, you may, for example, order something online and when you receive it it is "not what you expected". Some times it's a matter of whether (in a personal buy) the buyer reviewed the seller's product specifications. Other times it can be as simple as "I thought it would be softer" (e.g.: a child's stuffed animal). I recently bought a kitchen counter disk rack to place dishes in to dry after being washed. I received and assembled it and it did not sit flat on a counter surface. I gaged it, in a way, by checking it on my glass top stove. It was not adjustable to make it sit flat on it's four leg contact "clips" so to me it was not what I "expected". I returned it. The company could have refused the return by telling me that their product description ("specifications") did not specifically state that the rack would sit level, without wobbling, on a flat surface.

So - By using the word "expectations", one can get into the trap of there being nothing to measure "expectations" which aren't in the specifications. Color is another example - Red is - Well, in many cases (e.g.: a cell phone case) just some shade of red. Then again, sometimes color is very important - So important that colors are agreed to in specifications and can be measured by a Color Meter or visually in a Macbeth light booth against boundary sample color swatches.

Even the amount of gloss (e.g.; Gloss Meter, Spectrophotmeter, Thickness Gage, Color Meter, BYK-Gardner - No association, just a Bing search) can be specified and measured. I had to deal with that in vinyls over 20 years ago to ensure steering wheel and passenger dashboard air bag covers matched dashboards.

ISO 9001 does require that "expectations" in the form of specifications be determined by a buyer (customer), and for all intents and purposes requires suppliers to define at least some "specifications" for their products.

I was reviewing some old discussions here and one that came up in a search was Architect's Client Doesn't Know What He Wants - Contract Review Process

I'm a "contract" person going back years in the DoD stuff. In a search here I found: Contract Review vs. Preventive Action - Preventive Action. Interesting to think about...


But to get back to my original question - Exactly what business are you in? Or are you trying to write a book, are you a student, or something like that? I am very curious.

"Is ISO 9001 fully enough to manage a business?" --> No. Not by a long shot.

You can define what your specifications are, but you can NOT define what your customer's "expectations" are other than by providing exacting specifications.
 
Last edited:

somashekar

Staff member
Super Moderator
#10
Thanks, But I wonder where into the standard we can find elments to apply to economical aspects?
I think it could be possible using external practices, But implemented into iso, Is that what you meant?
Thanks
Into this world, business came first and many of them thrived and grew. Then came the ISO 9001. So map your business process into the ISO9001. You will find that the economic aspects cannot be mapped. Its not the intent of the ISO 9001 standard.

What is in the standard that you cannot map from your processes is the gap, which you will fill.

Hence that answers. Its not in the scope of the ISO 9001 to manage your business.

Now see the cover page of the standard. It is Quality management systems - Requirements
 
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