Is it a Finding if all Internal Auditors are from the Quality Department?

V

Vthouta

#11
In my organization, we have a list of Internal Auditors and all are from different roles in the Quality Department. I feel this is not good. Is this acceptable and would it be a finding in the ISO Certification audit ?
This is really an interesting question. As per the below comments, they should not be auditing their own work.

In other words, Quality department cannot be audited by their own teams. If you see in any internal audits, in general you will find that there are no non-conformance's on doc-control or quality related processes.

There would be no finding if all internal auditors are from quality group but some one should be auditing quality processes too, since their cannot audit their own work.
 
Elsmar Forum Sponsor
A

arkyhog

#12
Interesting reply. So, based on this, why do you think being a Lead Auditor requires many years of experience, in related industries and passing an accredited course with an exam, if it's simply a case of asking questions?
A Lead Auditor certificate can be obtained through many external companies if you want to pay them to come in and charge $1500+ for their week long role playing course to learn to ask questions. If you are talking about RABQSA Lead Auditor then your on the wrong thread. This is about Internal Auditors not third party. At the end of the day no matter what you want your title to be you’re still just asking questions to obtain objective evidence of compliance to a standard.
 

Randy

Super Moderator
#13
A Lead Auditor certificate can be obtained through many external companies if you want to pay them to come in and charge $1500+ for their week long role playing course to learn to ask questions. If you are talking about RABQSA Lead Auditor then your on the wrong thread. This is about Internal Auditors not third party. At the end of the day no matter what you want your title to be you?re still just asking questions to obtain objective evidence of compliance to a standard.
Pretty good except there is no such entity as RABQSA....And there's more to being a Lead Auditor than verifying "Conformity"
 

dsanabria

Quite Involved in Discussions
#14
Absolutely! Taking some one that is not a subject matter expert or thinks they are one; is the best way I have found for asking questions. You essentially you could get a 5-why to a simple audit question if the auditor has no prior subject matter experience. The only pre requisite is the subject matter material to review. The less you know the more questions you will ask if you take what you?re doing serious. I have yet to meet many accountants that joke around the water cooler most if the day. ;)


"ISO 19011 - Guidelines for auditing management systems
7.2.3 Knowledge and skills

7.2.3.1 General
Auditors should possess the knowledge and skills necessary to achieve the intended results of the audits they are expected to perform. All auditors should possess generic knowledge and skills and should also be expected to possess some discipline and sector-specific knowledge and skills. Audit team leaders should have the additional knowledge and skills necessary to provide leadership to the audit team."

You need to re-think your position, while I understand of having new people with new set of concept doing internal audits - you could possibly end up with 2 scenarios
1. People like me that would look at as a newbie that I could play with at will with misleading statement just because!

or

2. confused auditee because the new auditor told him something different that what was written in the procedure or standard because they are using totally different experiences and knowledge and technical language.

SO... if you choose to use an accountant - place him with a veteran - a season auditor in the field.
 

Big Jim

Super Moderator
#15
Many years ago, when I was a senior in high school, I went through a battery of aptitude tests. I had not chosen a college yet, let alone determined a major for college. I scored high on the IQ type tests, but didn't really buckle down in high school for the best of grades. I still took every math and science class offered. The school had been given an opportunity for free aptitude testing for people like me, from, of all sources, the US Army.

Anyway, I scored extremely high in mechanical skills. The person that administered the tests told me that there were three main topics that I should do well in, all requiring similar attributes. All required an analytical mind.

The three topics are Mechanic, Engineer, and Accountant.

Would I like a good accountant on my audit team? You bet. If he could make it through accounting school, pass the CPA exam, and complete internship with one of the (at that time) Big Eight accounting firms, I have no doubt that they could see if an engineer kept good records.

What is really neat is when you have an accountant that also has either some engineering background or some mechanical background as well.

Accountants can get way off track as badly as any other group though. Especially when they don't get the right exposure to the rest of the company. It is when the accountants overran the engineers that General Motors started their deep nose dive that led to their bankruptcy.

But many accountants have the ability to be exceptional quality management system auditors and should not be ignored.
 
#16
In other words, Quality department cannot be audited by their own teams. If you see in any internal audits, in general you will find that there are no non-conformance's on doc-control or quality related processes.

There would be no finding if all internal auditors are from quality group but some one should be auditing quality processes too, since their cannot audit their own work.
Not at all true. It simply says an auditor can't audit their own work, nothing to do with departments...
 
#17
A Lead Auditor certificate can be obtained through many external companies if you want to pay them to come in and charge $1500+ for their week long role playing course to learn to ask questions. If you are talking about RABQSA Lead Auditor then your on the wrong thread. This is about Internal Auditors not third party. At the end of the day no matter what you want your title to be you’re still just asking questions to obtain objective evidence of compliance to a standard.
And they HAVE to be competent, which means applying SKILLS and (more importantly) KNOWLEDGE. It's NOT just about asking questions. It's also about verifying objective evidence and coming to conclusions (as Dave Sanabria points out) among other things. My experience tells me you're waaay off in your understanding of a) what internal (or other) auditors do and b) what it takes to become a FULLY QUALIFIED Lead Auditor (under any scheme) not just - what you seem to think - sitting in a course and getting a certificate. That NEVER made anyone an auditor and, if you research what it takes to become a fully qualified LEAD Auditor, you'll see the course is but one (small) component.
 
Last edited:
#19
In my organization, we have a list of Internal Auditors and all are from different roles in the Quality Department. I feel this is not good. Is this acceptable and would it be a finding in the ISO Certification audit ?
A more technically correct answer might be:

To have a "finding" (a non-conformity) there would HAVE to be a "requirement". Now, unless your organization wrote into their QMS that internal auditors have to come from QA, then (clearly) ISO 9001 doesn't state ANYWHERE anything about departments. A CB auditor can't bring (their) "requirements" to the audit in addition to those stated in ISO 9001, or in your own QMS. So... the answer you're seeking is simple...
 
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
Q ISO 9001-2015 Internal audit finding Internal Auditing 12
S GM/VP softgrading internal audit finding - need feedback from an audit guru! General Auditing Discussions 11
A Writing an Internal Audit Report Finding for Employee Awareness of QMS Documents ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 11
R Can a external auditor raise a finding that is already identified in Internal Audit ? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 11
M Internal Audit finding versus External Audit finding General Auditing Discussions 2
L Internal Re-audit after Major Finding during ISO 9001 Re-Certification Audit ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 10
K ISO 13485 Audit Finding on Regulatory Issues - Internal Audits ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 8
S Internal Audit Finding relating to Superseded Documentation Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 36
P Internal Audit Finding - Root Cause Analysis: Auditor or an Auditee Responsibility? Internal Auditing 24
6 Management Review does not highlight Internal Audit Finding - Root Cause Analysis General Auditing Discussions 11
K Scoring Scale for Internal Audits - Please help finding the right terms Internal Auditing 44
G Is this an internal audit finding or not Internal Auditing 8
M Internal Audit finding leading to 'Punishment' (Disciplinary Action) - Your Thoughts? Internal Auditing 79
C How to analyse the internal audit finding in term of discrepancy Internal Auditing 4
J Internal Audit Findings - Major vs. Minor Finding - Defining the differences Internal Auditing 14
S Failure to Close Out an Internal Audit Finding Internal Auditing 20
A Definition Major vs. Minor Nonconformance (Finding) - Internal Audit - Definition & Differences Definitions, Acronyms, Abbreviations and Interpretations Listed Alphabetically 38
A Define timeline for Major and Miner Audit finding General Auditing Discussions 4
F Closing a finding before closing meeting General Auditing Discussions 14
J Audit Finding For Not Retaining Test Results ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 7
A OHSAS 18001 external auditor finding personal interpretation? Occupational Health & Safety Management Standards 5
E Received a Major finding during IATF Surveillance audit for loss of BIQS Level 3 (more than 6 SPPS in 6 months)...how should we address SYSTEMIC CA? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 11
Marco Bernardi Finding a flat or not modeling distribution: how to manage it? Capability, Accuracy and Stability - Processes, Machines, etc. 24
H Looking for Tips on finding an IATF consultant Consultants and Consulting 6
D Customer Audit Finding ISO13485:2016 7.6 ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 7
B PED 2014/68/EU - Is this Traceability audit finding correct? Other ISO and International Standards and European Regulations 4
XRAY_3121 Design and Development Requirement - MDSAP Audit Finding Other Medical Device Regulations World-Wide 5
R Major nonformance finding was given during a closing meeting of a ISO9001 certification audit General Auditing Discussions 76
G Audit finding - Components being transferred inter-plant Internal Auditing 3
S Difficulty Finding A Notified Body for CE Marking - No Capacity Registrars and Notified Bodies 5
D AEA (Aerospace Experience Auditor) Challenges - Finding availability of AEA for witness AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 3
B IATF 16949 7.1.5.3.2 FAQ #7 Audit Finding - External Calibration Laboratory IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 7
P Major Finding Elevation - Do I elevate this minor finding to a major one? AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 14
Q Customer Requirements - AS9120B Audit Finding AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 24
J IATF 16949 registration - Major Nonconformance Finding IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 9
J Hardness inspection Audit Finding Employee error Nonconformance and Corrective Action 6
J How long should I have to correct an audit finding? VDA Standards - Germany's Automotive Standards 7
AlienraverX How to appeal a major audit finding ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 26
T Non-addressed Minor Finding elevated to Major Finding Internal Auditing 37
S Definition Would a wrong definition constitute an Audit Finding? Definitions, Acronyms, Abbreviations and Interpretations Listed Alphabetically 3
L Audit Finding Flowchart for Feedback General Auditing Discussions 6
B Finding a Fixture Design Course to meet Customer Requirements General Measurement Device and Calibration Topics 3
A Audit Finding - CAPA, Improvement Initiatives not filed in CAR System ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 5
O CFDA (China Food and Drugs Administration) Audit Finding Classifications China Medical Device Regulations 1
B Expired Materials (threadlocker) Audit Finding Classification? Internal Auditing 1
S Is not training to ISO 9001 procedures a finding? General Auditing Discussions 16
S Could I issue major finding for Inadequate Procedures Supplier Quality Assurance and other Supplier Issues 17
S Finding a substantial Equivalent Medical Device Other US Medical Device Regulations 4
H Cause analysis for an Audit Finding - Purchasing Procedure Content ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 9
R Finding specific 510k guidance for Keratoprosthesis (MLP) Other US Medical Device Regulations 1

Similar threads

Top Bottom