Is it an ISO Requirement for QA Manager to have Lead Auditor certificate

[Jaxter]

Thanks again everyone! I've been preparing for our ISO 9001:2000 Quality Management System for the last 12 months. Writing, editing, and establishing procedures, processes, work instructions, flowcharts, forms, checklists, etc. I've researched quite a bit on the internet, read the US & European Standards, read numerous interpertations of the standards, reviewed other companies QAM's online, and had an internal auditors class. Without the knowledge I've gained, I wouldn't be able to question subjective opinions. All of your input has been a great help and very reassuring that I am on the correct path. I just did not know how "accredited" I need to be as my company's Management Rep (QCM) as stated in 5.5.2.

This is a great forum for newbies like me!

 

[Paul Simpson]

Maybe so, but it was tied to evidence of competency & training.

Whoa, there, Randy. Is this one of your N/Cs? :mg:

As has been mentioned earlier an auditor can identify a problem with the audit process but it is down to the company to identify (for example) that part of the corrective action is a lead auditor training course.

BTW We are just talking to our accreditation bodies and they are drumming into us that competence is more than training and experience.

Is it illegal, immoral or unethical to have a contract stipulation like that?

Yes!

 

[Sidney Vianna]

Maybe so, but it was tied to evidence of competency & training.

Successful completion of a lead auditor training course makes no one more competent to act as a Management representative. As Colpart mentioned, it might provide deeper insight on interpreting the Standard, but the skill set an MR should possess is different from a "lead auditor".

Is it illegal, immoral or unethical to have a contract stipulation like that?

Let's see: illegal? Nope. Immoral or unethical? Maybe. Especially if the CB is trying to fill seats for one of their lead auditor classes, and using their registrants as prey cattle prospective course takers. It is like the CB writing up organizations for ineffective internal audits, root cause analysis one day and offering courses on internal audits and RCA the next day.

 

[Paul Simpson]

I just did not know how "accredited" I need to be as my company's Management Rep (QCM) as stated in 5.5.2.

You don't have to have a high school diploma, first degree or doctorate, bronze swimming badge, lead auditor qualification ..... you just have to be competent at your job.

All the things you described help you to get there, only you (and others that see you work) will be able to tell when you are there.

This is a great forum for newbies like me!

Good luck. You are in good hands! :

 

[Randy]

Whoa, there, Randy. Is this one of your N/Cs? :mg:

Nope, I've had previousl;y seen it while working for a totally different body. It was a stipulation of another orgaization and I questioned it as well.

As has been mentioned earlier an auditor can identify a problem with the audit process but it is down to the company to identify (for example) that part of the corrective action is a lead auditor training course.

You betcha. If I had the ability, which I don't of course, I'd tell them that an IA course might be more suitable than a LA. Lead courses are overkill for most folks.

BTW We are just talking to our accreditation bodies and they are drumming into us that competence is more than training and experience.

No kidding! What a unique concept We need to learn that here in the colonies

Yes!

You know of course that I'm tweaking you a bit?

 

[Paul Simpson]

You know of course that I'm tweaking you a bit?

Tweak away!

I'd be interested to hear what "the other side of the pond" thinks about demonstrating competence when we are being told (in good old Blighty, don't you know?) that the old ways are no longer any good - another thread anyone?

 

[Randy]

We have really tossed this one around a bit...I know there are a couple of threads...

Boils down to "demonstrated ability to apply knowledge and skills" I guess

 

[Paul Simpson]

We have really tossed this one around a bit...I know there are a couple of threads...

Boils down to "demonstrated ability to apply knowledge and skills" I guess

Thanks for the prompt, Randy. I have done a search and am busy browsing. So far the threads follow the same sort of approach and subject - external auditor competence (or lack of it).

I would like to turn it around. Here at my CB (as part of the transition to ISO IEC 17021) we are being asked to justify our assessment of competence for experienced auditors in every type of industry they work in.

Now as most of the Covers are either allied with a certification body (as an employee / auditor (full time or contract) or are on the receiving end of audits as assessed companies or consultants I think you all have a right to have your say (and it might save me wearing out what are left of my grey cells ).

What do you think makes an auditor competent to audit your company?

I will start another thread / poll on the registrar thread and post the link back here.

 

[Paul Simpson]

As promised the thread in the registrar section has been added - Here.

 

[Colin]

I would like to turn it around. Here at my CB (as part of the transition to ISO IEC 17021) we are being asked to justify our assessment of competence for experienced auditors in every type of industry they work in.

And as we know, competence is sometimes 'time dependent' i.e. there is often a need to update that knowledge. Now, I believe that is tough for full time auditors to achieve - especially across several codes.