Is it good to outsource the Internal Audits?

somashekar

Staff member
Super Moderator
#11
Re: Is it good to outsource the internal audit?

:truce:
To the direct subject line ... Is it good to ~~~
I said Its bad.
:2cents: :agree:
If a good consultant can handhold for a couple of internal audit cycles, it would help organizations. Just as the word says "Internal audit" I am for this audit to be by Internal resources as time goes by.
 
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Kronos147

Trusted Information Resource
#12
Re: Is it good to outsource the internal audit?

Employees are not following procedures (indicating potentially bigger problems).
Yes, bigger problems.

You have Management saying "we need a quality program", and giving lip service to "Top management shall appoint a member of the organization's management who... shall have responsibility and authority that includes... the organizational freedom and unrestricted access to top management to resolve quality management issues."

You have the Quality department and Quality Manager telling the employees why they must follow procedures.

You have production managers telling all employees to disregard procedures because of order urgency (failure to plan).

You have upper management telling the QA Manager to do a corrective action on paper that doesn't rock the boat or involve anyone else on those NCR's written for failure to plan.

:deadhorse:

Some companies are not really committed to a QMS. We have read about them here on the Cove. We frequently suggest to those members that work in an environment like that to leave.
 

John Broomfield

Staff member
Super Moderator
#13
Re: Is it good to outsource the internal audit?

Faxzy,

Outsourcing internal audit can be a good idea.

But it depends on:

  • The internal audit programme having its objectives set, reviewed and renewed by top management;
  • Use and development of effective criteria for the selection of the auditor;
  • An effective auditing process that is monitored by the system manager (aka Man Rep);
  • An objective issued for each audit for audit planning and preparation;
  • A fresh checklist for each process audit (influenced by the objective); and
  • Continued involvement of top management (attending each closing meeting at least).
Close-out of actions to stop recurrence of nonconformity should still be handled as part of the corrective action process instead of being made part of audit with the responsible manager first determining the evidence of effective corrective action.

Last point, do not use external auditors to do your "dirty work" (aka holding management to account) if you are the system manager. It's better to obtain the authority and the fortitude to do it yourself so you have day to day improvement instead of waiting for the next audit while quality suffers.

John
 

LUV-d-4UM

Quite Involved in Discussions
#14
Re: Is it good to outsource the internal audit?

I agree with Somashekar;

Outsourcing Internal auditor :
Loses involvement in the process
Miss learning opportunity
The involvement of people within the organization is missed.
Consultantswill give a canned checklist which is not the true process audit.
Losses ownership of the process.
We hired a consultant to maintain and audit our quality system long ago and all that money did not help us eliminate some underlying causes of of the problems. :D
 
#15
Re: Is it good to outsource the internal audit?

On the other hand, when I was a consultant, I worked for one client and found LOTS of things where the management system was messed up, didn't use a canned checklist (I used my "Football" planning sheet), audited the (ISO 14001) EMS and found that they'd never meet their environmental goals, found the main product test equipment (ISO/TS 16949) QMS at one location was broken but no-one had said anything and more...(the CB had never said anything about this stuff)

This client only used me for one round of internal audits, dismissed me so that a cheaper consultant - who I had trained - "stole" my approach to the "process audits" etc...

At another client, I found over $8M (conservative) savings from the lack of IT support to the QMS, had the president become a "born again ISO guy" (once again, the CB never reported it, although it was all over a large shop)... Sadly, all management did was "CYA"...

So, is it worthwhile out sourcing IA? You betcha!
 

Marc

Hunkered Down for the Duration with a Mask on...
Staff member
Admin
#16
Born Again ISO 9001 Upper Management

<snip> had the president become a "born again ISO guy" (once again, the CB never reported it, although it was all over a large shop)... Sadly, all management did was "CYA"... <snip>
In cases like this I have to laugh. Poor management if it takes a consultant to get upper management to become "born again ISO guys". If they lost sight of the ball before, this may wake them up short term. Long term? Will they really change?

But the bottom line is if they're happy with their business it really doesn't matter. I know a large multi-national whose policy was (and probably still is) to replace an item without question whenever there was a complaint. They placed very little interest in improved designs based upon data such as customer returns. Their profit margin was very high. It really frustrated their corporate quality manager who was a friend of mine.
 

LUV-d-4UM

Quite Involved in Discussions
#17
Re: Is it good to outsource the internal audit?

Andy,

I only know about your reputation through this website. I am sure that if you were our consultant you will help us manage our business well instead of just coming in and do a checklist type of audit. I learned to be a credible resource through this website.
 
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