Is it necessary to take out a sample from delivery lot to save for 15 years?!

[Pinkpetall]

Hi, again a question want to get your help.

Is it the must that each delivery lot shall take out one sample to save for 15 years? I ask this for help from our consultant, he said that we shall do that to prove the production status of that time. If not, we can only save the picture for safety characteristics, is it right?

For example, if we keep one sample from one lot, one year, we will delivery 50,000 lots to customers, we have to save 50,000 samples, it is so expensive for us?!

Longing for your help.

 

[Phil P]

Hi Pinkpetall,

It is necessary to hold samples of parts that you have manufactured, but the length of time is dependant on both the standard which you are certified to and customer requirement (whichever is greater). Fifteen years is unnusually long in my experience, five years is more typical, but medical and other more critical applications often require greater periods.

It makes good business sense to keep samples in case of future rejection from the customer, that way you can verify the existance of any defect and identify affected lots. They will also be useful if you dispute a rejection.

Hope that helps.

 

[Phil P]

Hi Pinkpetall,

One thing to add. You don't necessarily need to hold them for each delivery, it is more than adequate to hold them from manufacturing lots (this may reduce the number of samples you need to hold if, for example, you produce 10kk per batch and supply 2kk per delivery to the customer.

 

[Bill Ryan - 2007]

Whether we're in compliance or not, I'm not sure, but we save our "First Pc. sample" until the production run is concluded - and then it is tossed. We then save the "Last Pc. sample" from that run until the next production run of that part and that "Last pc." is gathered. There is no way we are saving samples from each lot.

 

[Cari Spears]

Is it the must that each delivery lot shall take out one sample to save for 15 years? ...If not, we can only save the picture for safety characteristics, is it right?

Hi - what is your product?

 

[Phil P]

I can't see anything in the standard that requires you to retain samples for any defined period, and I presume that you're certified? In our case this requirement comes from customers, but also makes sense from our persepctive due to the volume and diversity of products we supply. We hold samples for min 5 yrs.

 

[Jim Wynne]

Hi - what is your product?

It's a good question; generally speaking, and in the absence of specific customer requirements, the only reason to update a retained sample is when there's a good reason to do it. If a sample is retained from a first production run and there has been no change in tooling, processing or materials, there might be no need to update the retained sample. For PPAP purposes, the requirement (from the 3rd Edition of the AIAG manual) reads,

The supplier shall retain a master sample for the same period as the production part approval records, or a) until a new master sample is produced for the same customer part number for customer approval, or b) where a master sample is required by the design record, Control Plan or inspection criteria, as a reference or standard to be used....The supplier shall retain a master sample for each position of a multiple cavity die, mold, tool or pattern, or production process unless otherwise specified by the customer.

 

[Pinkpetall]

Our production is Automotive Airbag connector.

Currently, we save following sample,
1 first article sample in process: only save to end of shift;
2 Supplier offering first article sample: one year;
3 Incoming sample: half a year;
4 Customer returns sample: 2 year;
5 sample for mass production approval: 1 year;
6 Automotive PPAP samples: 15 years;

Would you think it is approciate saving requirement for automotive business?

Now, we only have business with agent, so some specific requirements from direct customer we can not reach.

Some confused.

 

[Jim Wynne]

Our production is Automotive Airbag connector.

Currently, we save following sample,
1 first article sample in process: only save to end of shift;
2 Supplier offering first article sample: one year;
3 Incoming sample: half a year;
4 Customer returns sample: 2 year;
5 sample for mass production approval: 1 year;
6 Automotive PPAP samples: 15 years;

Would you think it is approciate saving requirement for automotive business?

Now, we only have business with agent, so some specific requirements from direct customer we can not reach.

Some confused.

I've already quoted the PPAP requirements for sample retention; if there are customer requirements that call for longer retention times then you will have to honor them, or renegotiate them if you think they're unreasonable. As far as your company's policies are concerned, you should do whatever makes sense for your company. I don't know what you mean by "sample for mass production approval" (how is it different from a PPAP master sample?) but if there's a good reason to keep them for a year, then keep them for a year. 15 years seems extreme for any sort of sample, as most of the vehicles concerned will be a junkyard by then, but again, if there's a good reason for doing it...

 

[Cari Spears]

Is it the must that each delivery lot shall take out one sample to save for 15 years? I ask this for help from our consultant, he said that we shall do that to prove the production status of that time. If not, we can only save the picture for safety characteristics, is it right?

...in the absence of specific customer requirements, the only reason to update a retained sample is when there's a good reason to do it. If a sample is retained from a first production run and there has been no change in tooling, processing or materials, there might be no need to update the retained sample.

Yeah - what he and the PPAP manual said. Ask your consultant where he got this "15 years" from.