Is it possible to get ISO 9001 certification in 90 days?

[Big Jim]

In my opinion, these situations call for consultants who are in the upper echelon of consulting where the focus is on the big picture of changing an entire organization culture rather than the narrow focus (as it seems to many company executives) of adding a certification. I'm sure many ISO consultants have run across organizations where the top management thinks of adding an ISO registration on the same scale as repainting the company lunchroom. Where such a situation causes many consultants to throw up their hands and say "If they're not interested in making things happen, the project will fail and they would undoubtedly blame me, so it was easiest to not charge them and let them find someone else." the upper echelon consultant actually seeks out such situations.

Such a "big picture" oriented consultant spends time delving into the REAL motive behind an organization's quest for anything new to it, whether it be registration to an International Standard, meeting new government regulations, entering new markets, changing suppliers, etc. BEFORE he frames the consulting contract. This assures both consultant and client are on the same page and will work toward the same goal.

Certainly, some executives lie, while others don't even suspect what their true motive is. Whether it is deception or ignorance on the part of the top management, a good, experienced consultant can recognize that early on and make the value decision whether he is competent to help the organization bosses change.

1. If yes, he has to have the courage (and often, the gravitas) to describe the true "root cause" which needs to be corrected and persuade them to pay the consultant to help them correct it.
2. If no, the consultant has a number of options: just walking away being the easiest. Telling the bosses they need a lot more change than just picking up a piece of paper for the lobby wall is a lot tougher.

Bottom line:
I've recognized consulting situations that were beyond my ability to accomplish. Being beyond my personal ability may be something as simple to recognize as impossible time tables or as complex as powerhouse competitors in the prospect's market actively working to squeeze them out of the market. Sometimes, I just can't put my finger on the things that really need to be fixed after several hours of interviews and research. In any case, I always find that the blunt truth works better for me than just walking away without explanation or referral. Often, it works better for the prospective client as well.

It may be the way I frame the tale or just luck, but I've always gotten a "Thank you for your frankness." response after delivering such an explanation and none have called security guards to throw me into the street.

Wes,

At this point, the consultancy moves more into that of an Organizational Development (OD) Specialists. OD interventions require an extreme management commitment and don't work unless top management is willing to sacrifice all to obtain it. Such interventions usually take more than 90 days.

 

[Wes Bucey]

Wes,

At this point, the consultancy moves more into that of an Organizational Development (OD) Specialists. OD interventions require an extreme management commitment and don't work unless top management is willing to sacrifice all to obtain it. Such interventions usually take more than 90 days.

Yep. However, unless somebody steps up and convinces the guys writing the check what is really needed, everyone goes away dissatisfied. However, QMS changes, to be successful, are the kind of changes that do require "top management is willing to sacrifice all to obtain it."

 

[JaneB]

Interesting the turns this thread is taking.

I've recognized consulting situations that were beyond my ability to accomplish.

Yes, just so. Exactly the situation that Marc and I have referred to. And keeping the focus on the issue, rather than taking an opportunity to self-promote.

 

[JaneB]

Wes,

At this point, the consultancy moves more into that of an Organizational Development (OD) Specialists. OD interventions require an extreme management commitment and don't work unless top management is willing to sacrifice all to obtain it. Such interventions usually take more than 90 days.

Such interventions cannot be achieved in 90 days.

 

[JaneB]

However, QMS changes, to be successful, are the kind of changes that do require "top management is willing to sacrifice all to obtain it."

True.

However, unless somebody steps up and convinces the guys writing the check what is really needed, everyone goes away dissatisfied.

It isn't simply a matter of someone 'stepping up'. Communication requires two parties: if the other party doesn't want to hear or won't listen, then the communication doesn't take place. You cannot 'convince' people who aren't willing or ready to hear.

 

[Wes Bucey]

True.


It isn't simply a matter of someone 'stepping up'. Communication requires two parties: if the other party doesn't want to hear or won't listen, then the communication doesn't take place. You cannot 'convince' people who aren't willing or ready to hear.

Brings to mind a quote from the Godfather films - "an offer he couldn't refuse."

I've never run across one that wouldn't listen, but lots who listened and then made decisions not to follow through AT THAT TIME. I've always thought of the folks who have bad habits and who refuse to change them when others suggest change as just like any other addict -they have to hit their own personal bottoms before they are ready to make that change. Sometimes they die before they hit that bottom. Mostly, though, they hit bottom and there's no one left to help and they die anyway. With organizations, sometimes they are so dysfunctional, they blow up with lots of headlines; mostly, though, there are far more that implode and disappear with barely a whimper.

Just because some addicts are recidivists doesn't mean the rehab folks give up on them. I don't burn bridges - I always leave the door open.

Now, many of you folks have to consider there is an extremely wide spectrum of consultants and their styles and focus of business. I'm lucky enough to have reached a stage in life where I look only for interesting assignments, which usually means those where many other consultants don't see personal value in pursuing an assignment where they see an organization and its top managers as extremely resistant to change and mark it FUBAR and avoid it like the plague.

It's all still fun for me - no bitterness, no regret. I get to do what I love to do and still get paid!


Even when I do pro bono work and don't ask for, or expect, pay, the challenge is what gets me out my door each morning.

The other day, I was sitting in a cafe with some other politically active long-time residents of our town and we got to talking about the increasing number of vacant stores along the main street in the last two years. After a quick walk across the square to our local library for some research on local businesses, we learned (surprisingly to all of us) the annual number of business closings along the main street in our town had been level for the past FIFTEEN years. The difference in the last two years was the scarcity of new entrepreneurs to fill the vacancies. That led to a whole new still-ongoing discussion of the causes of the failures and the strategies to bring in viable new businesses to fill the vacancies.

I can't wait to see how we proceed. The combination of economics, sociology, demographics, and politics, with the attendant posturing and compromising among powerful and influential factions would be fun to watch if I were just a fly on the wall, but I get a voice - how great is that?

 

[Big Jim]

Such interventions cannot be achieved in 90 days.

I try to avoid absolutes, cannot being one of them.

Think for a minute of the intervention that Chrysler is going through right now (Chapter 11). It looks like they may come out of their restructuring in 90 days. That's one hell of an intervention, and even if it takes more than 90 days, that one huge mass alteration in corporate culture.

I do agree with you in principle though in that it is very highly unlikely to be achieved, but as soon as we say it can't be done, someone will do it, pounding Murphy into the pavement in the process.

 

[Polly Pure Bread]

Wow, 90 days, huh? Ridiculous timetable (in any industry) from whoever sold you that.
My advice would be to avoid using any "Consultant". I've found that no matter how much customer satisfaction they claim to have, Consultants have a vested interest.....in themselves. Perhaps some spoil it for all, but I calls 'em like I sees 'em.

Thank you for your advice but the management believes that getting a consultant will make it easy for them to achieve the timeline or if not at least fast-track the project completion. They see it as an investment. The important thing is to make the money work for them by investing it. They don’t need to have a perfect plan or wait for a perfect time before they start to invest considering the current pressure comes from the customer.


The management, like any other entrepreneurs, wanted being on the safe side so they set three requirements.

1. The penalty imposed for every day the project is delayed caused by consultant.
2. If project exceeds 3 months, consultant will not be paid during this excess period.
3. The refund required in case of termination.

As any consultant would agree, requirements 1 & 2 are not acceptable. If the management is presented with reasonable argument, it would accept requirements 1 & 2 to be deleted from the contract.

Requirement #3 – Pre-termination, however, would seem outrageous to the management or company owner. The management has already invested too much; time, money & their resources; only to be abandoned by the consultant in the middle or before end of the project.

Why most consultants indicate in their contract the pre-termination policy? Why not complete all deliverables? Are they worried of the possibility that organization can’t meet obligations or would cause delays? If that happened, they can extend the timeline. I really don’t understand the pre-termination provision. Otherwise, the management itself decided to terminate the project. If this would be the case, the consultant should be paid on the services that were rendered.

I hope someone can shed some light as to the need of this clause in any contract between management and consultant.

 

[Wes Bucey]

Thank you for your advice but the management believes that getting a consultant will make it easy for them to achieve the timeline or if not at least fast-track the project completion. They see it as an investment. The important thing is to make the money work for them by investing it. They don’t need to have a perfect plan or wait for a perfect time before they start to invest considering the current pressure comes from the customer.


The management, like any other entrepreneurs, wanted being on the safe side so they set three requirements.

1. The penalty imposed for every day the project is delayed caused by consultant.
2. If project exceeds 3 months, consultant will not be paid during this excess period.
3. The refund required in case of termination.

As any consultant would agree, requirements 1 & 2 are not acceptable. If the management is presented with reasonable argument, it would accept requirements 1 & 2 to be deleted from the contract.

Requirement #3 – Pre-termination, however, would seem outrageous to the management or company owner. The management has already invested too much; time, money & their resources; only to be abandoned by the consultant in the middle or before end of the project.

Why most consultants indicate in their contract the pre-termination policy? Why not complete all deliverables? Are they worried of the possibility that organization can’t meet obligations or would cause delays? If that happened, they can extend the timeline. I really don’t understand the pre-termination provision. Otherwise, the management itself decided to terminate the project. If this would be the case, the consultant should be paid on the services that were rendered.

I hope someone can shed some light as to the need of this clause in any contract between management and consultant.

I've been a consultant a long time - the #3 item seems a little vague to me. I really don't understand what you mean by the term pre-termination.

In my investment banking business, we often had 2 or 3 pages of clauses detailing conditions and payments/refunds in the event either party unilaterally canceled a contract, with or without cause. I recall one combined ESOP/IPO contract that had about 5 pages on termination. Lawyers can be awfully tedious when it comes to reducing a so-called "handshake agreement" to a written one.

FUTURE USE ONLY:
We all understand the original deal as far as you, personally, is involved, is no longer live, but some more information about that termination thinking from the point of view of the original organization seeking registration could help us all to better understanding in any future deal, regardless of which side of the deal we're on.

 

[Chris Ford]

Thank you for your advice but the management believes that getting a consultant will make it easy for them to achieve the timeline or if not at least fast-track the project completion. They see it as an investment. The important thing is to make the money work for them by investing it. They don’t need to have a perfect plan or wait for a perfect time before they start to invest considering the current pressure comes from the customer.


The management, like any other entrepreneurs, wanted being on the safe side so they set three requirements.

1. The penalty imposed for every day the project is delayed caused by consultant.
2. If project exceeds 3 months, consultant will not be paid during this excess period.
3. The refund required in case of termination.

As any consultant would agree, requirements 1 & 2 are not acceptable. If the management is presented with reasonable argument, it would accept requirements 1 & 2 to be deleted from the contract.

Requirement #3 – Pre-termination, however, would seem outrageous to the management or company owner. The management has already invested too much; time, money & their resources; only to be abandoned by the consultant in the middle or before end of the project.

Why most consultants indicate in their contract the pre-termination policy? Why not complete all deliverables? Are they worried of the possibility that organization can’t meet obligations or would cause delays? If that happened, they can extend the timeline. I really don’t understand the pre-termination provision. Otherwise, the management itself decided to terminate the project. If this would be the case, the consultant should be paid on the services that were rendered.

I hope someone can shed some light as to the need of this clause in any contract between management and consultant.

I don't think I've seen a "pre-termination" clause in any of my consulting agreements. I do include a termination clause that allows either party to terminate the agreement with a 30-day written notification. If I'm working on a retainer, I'd do the final accounting, and refund or invoice as appropriate. If there is no retainer - typically the case for me - I submit final invoicing. My approach to projects is a lot like the design and development clause... I convert the client's requirements into specific project time lines and deliverables. It's a typical project plan identifying roles and responsibilities, deliverables and due dates. I conduct project progress meetings, attain acceptance on deliverables, adjust the plan as needed, etc. My invoices reflect the completed deliverables. I normally invoice immediately following a progress meeting. I haven't had one canceled or canceled one myself, but I have received a few clients from other consultants who were terminating their agreements.

At any rate, I suppose if I signed a substantially large contract with a client that would require me to clear a significant portion of my calendar for a long period of time (i.e. maybe more than 90 days) I'd consider negotiating an early termination fee. It would be some percentage of the quoted project total. Most of my projects are about two to three months long with occasional follow-up meetings and projects, so I haven't had to address this issue yet. It's definitely a valid point to consider!