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Is not having a controlled copy of ISO 9001 standard a NonConformance?

Is not having a current copy of ISO9001:2000 a Nonconformance?

  • Yes

    Votes: 5 21.7%

  • No

    Votes: 18 78.3%
  • Total voters
    23
  • Poll closed .
J

joshua_sx1

#31
#31
Re: Not having an original copy of ISO 9001 standard, Is it a Non- Conformance?

Peter West said:
In light of the above comments i think it is clear that he is assessing they system and its management of external documents, and not specifically just the copy of the Standard...
Click to expand...
...I agree...

…it only happens that he made the uncontrolled copy of ISO 9001 standard as an example…
 
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A

AndyN

Moved On
#32
#32
Re: Not having an original copy of ISO 9001 standard, Is it a Non- Conformance?

eternal_atlas said:
"Internal Audits are found to be carried out without referring to the approved (licensed) copy of the ISO Standard. Also, it is found that ISO and all international standards like ASMI,ASTM Codes are listed by the organisation as external documents which has to be controlled as per the document control procedure. However, Internal Auditors were found to be carried out the audits with respect to current version of ISO Standards but with uncontrolled copy"

Here is the verbal explanation given by the auditor during closing meeting :

" Since,the organisation is using uncontrolled copy of ISO Standard for auditing the QMS,it shows it wont be updated if the new revision comes in the future" Also, the system fails to control the documents of external orgin. He defined the standard as a quality record which should be maintained as a controlled copy. This is a Minor Non conformance.
Please comment on his statement,

But,as an auditee,i feel it is a nit picking excercise.. but i agree that i didnt control the iso standard since it is a document of external orgin,
Click to expand...
The reasons for this being a non-conformance are non-sensical! Apparently, they have a crystal ball to see into the future! "It shows it won't be updated? Wow, he could earn more money as a clairvoyant!

And making an issue of the photo copy of a document (that everyone knows is the latest and greatest) being used during an internal audit, is just a plain, bad joke - not a conconformance!
 
Last edited:
Randy

Randy

Super Moderator
#33
#33
Re: Not having an original copy of ISO 9001 standard, Is it a Non- Conformance?

Yeah, the piece about the "future"is an assumption and pretty bogus....That comment should have been left out.....BTW, I now feel a bit vindicated....;)
 
A

AndyN

Moved On
#34
#34
Re: Not having an original copy of ISO 9001 standard, Is it a Non- Conformance?

Jim Wynne said:
Great--show me the "shall."
Click to expand...
O.K Jim, we have to think out of the box here. As you've stated often enough here, we shouldn't be doing things because 'ISO-says-so". Since an organization has to develop their system in compliance with the international standard, how would they do that without a copy?

Sure there are many books and other documents which include the ISO 9001 requirements, but since they don't come from the "ISO folks", how would anyone know that key words and phrases weren't changed or even omitted all together? Better to get it from the proverbial horses mouth!

The OP was about not having an original copy - it's not as if he didn't have any copy or that it was the wrong version (like a '94!)

I'm sure you wouldn't propose that a company take on work from a client without a copy of the specification being maintained, so why are you advocating that 'hypothetically' you can have a system without having a copy of the ruling requirement? You're not making much sense to me!
 
Jim Wynne

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#35
#35
Re: Not having an original copy of ISO 9001 standard, Is it a Non- Conformance?

AndyN said:
O.K Jim, we have to think out of the box here. As you've stated often enough here, we shouldn't be doing things because 'ISO-says-so". Since an organization has to develop their system in compliance with the international standard, how would they do that without a copy?

Sure there are many books and other documents which include the ISO 9001 requirements, but since they don't come from the "ISO folks", how would anyone know that key words and phrases weren't changed or even omitted all together? Better to get it from the proverbial horses mouth!

The OP was about not having an original copy - it's not as if he didn't have any copy or that it was the wrong version (like a '94!)

I'm sure you wouldn't propose that a company take on work from a client without a copy of the specification being maintained, so why are you advocating that 'hypothetically' you can have a system without having a copy of the ruling requirement? You're not making much sense to me!
Click to expand...
The question isn't whether a system can be developed without a copy of the standard--in whatever form it might take--the question is more direct: if a third-party auditor finds that the organization has no copy of the standard, is there a nonconformity? If you want to issue one in this case, it can only be because "ISO says so." Third-party auditors are supposed to verify that the standard is being met.

So where's the "shall"? If you (or anyone else here) encountered this situation in an audit, how would you handle it if you feel it's a nonconformity?
 
A

AndyN

Moved On
#37
#37
Re: Not having an original copy of ISO 9001 standard, Is it a Non- Conformance?

Jim Wynne said:
The question isn't whether a system can be developed without a copy of the standard--in whatever form it might take--the question is more direct: if a third-party auditor finds that the organization has no copy of the standard, is there a nonconformity? If you want to issue one in this case, it can only be because "ISO says so." Third-party auditors are supposed to verify that the standard is being met.

So where's the "shall"? If you (or anyone else here) encountered this situation in an audit, how would you handle it if you feel it's a nonconformity?
Click to expand...
:topic:
We've already beaten that one to a pulp somewhere else.........we shouldn't derail this OP's question, here.
 
Randy

Randy

Super Moderator
#38
#38
Re: Not having an original copy of ISO 9001 standard, Is it a Non- Conformance?

Jim Wynne said:
So where's the "shall"? If you (or anyone else here) encountered this situation in an audit, how would you handle it if you feel it's a nonconformity?
Click to expand...
I've given about 3 or 4 shall's........the standard is just another required document or record and that old "for reference only" argument don't float, because if it is going to be referred to then evidence of intentional use is present and control must be also.
 
A

AndyN

Moved On
#39
#39
Re: Not having an original copy of ISO 9001 standard, Is it a Non- Conformance?

Craig H. said:
How do you know that the copy is accurate?
Click to expand...
Well, having worked for Xerox for many years, I can categorically state that if you put the 2000 version on the copier the 2000 version will be copied onto the paper in the output tray!

If you are referring to pages missing, then that's true for all documents however they are reproduced and isn't in context of what's be said here by the OP. He was cited for not having an original! Not that there were pages missing from the copies.

This issue has been much debated in another thread about copyright issues if you only had a photocopy of the standard.
 
Coury Ferguson

Coury Ferguson

Moderator here to help
Staff member
Super Moderator
#40
#40
Re: Not having an original copy of ISO 9001 standard, Is it a Non- Conformance?

In my opinion, I think we are missing the point.

The point is: There is no requirement to have a copy of ISO9001:2000, however, there is a requirement to control documents of an external nature.

We do not really have enough information to make a call. Was this the only document or were there others? That is the next question.
 
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