Is "Quality" just "Fitness for Use"?

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#71
Hi Jim,


Thank-you for giving me what you think I “asked for”.
I have no idea which post of mine (of several in this thread) that you're referring to. Please use the "Quote" button at the bottom of the window of the post you're responding to, and include at least part of that post in your response.
 
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Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#73
If we spend too much time worrying about what "quality" means, it's an indication that we don't understand the market, and the fact that we'll never sell products to everyone. If you know what your market wants and you can provide it in an economically feasible way, you've discovered all you need to know about quality.
I didn't think anyone was worrying. It is helpful to think about the philosophical underpinnings of the various approaches. Knowing what your market wants is one thing. But as we are not "one man bands" it is also necessary to be able express these in terms to your colleagues, customers, and suppliers as a communication of facts and information.
Hi Jim,
Thank-you for giving me what you think I “asked for”.
You seem to think that these would be new insights for me. If you look at my earlier posts in this thread you will see that I quoted Garvin and his 5 categories of definitions of quality.
You (apparently) wanted "philosophical underpinnings" and I gave you some. If you disagree with them, that's fine with me. :D I included a bit from an earlier post of mine in this thread, and your response to it, which indicate (to me) that you are interested in unnecessary complication of what should be relatively simple concepts.

My point in initiating this thread (and I did have one) was to point out what I feel is a sort of hypocrisy on the part of quality professionals. We (I include myself) sometimes cast judgment on products in a way that we would vigorously argue against if those judgments were cast on our products. This happens, in part, because of something akin to personal neuroses which have a tendency to rise up and overtake our better judgment at times.

I'm not interested in a rhetorical competition that results in beating the word "quality" beyond recognition. I say again: if we find out what the market wants and devise a way to provide it in an economically feasible way, we know what we need to know about quality.
http://elsmar.com/Forums/showpost.php?p=304772&postcount=33
 
A

Ashok GS

#74
Pre 1995's

Joseph M. Juran: "Fitness for use.” Fitness is defined by the customer.

Philip B. Crosby: "Conformance to requirements.“

ISO 9000: "Degree to which a set of inherent characteristics fulfills requirements."

Six Sigma: "Number of defects per million opportunities."

but Nowdays

"Quality is a perception more than a reality" :agree1:

We need to understand both stated and implied needs of the customer, to sustain in the market.
 

John Broomfield

Staff member
Super Moderator
#75
You (apparently) wanted "philosophical underpinnings" and I gave you some. If you disagree with them, that's fine with me. :D I included a bit from an earlier post of mine in this thread, and your response to it, which indicate (to me) that you are interested in unnecessary complication of what should be relatively simple concepts.

My point in initiating this thread (and I did have one) was to point out what I feel is a sort of hypocrisy on the part of quality professionals. We (I include myself) sometimes cast judgment on products in a way that we would vigorously argue against if those judgments were cast on our products. This happens, in part, because of something akin to personal neuroses which have a tendency to rise up and overtake our better judgment at times.

I'm not interested in a rhetorical competition that results in beating the word "quality" beyond recognition. I say again: if we find out what the market wants and devise a way to provide it in an economically feasible way, we know what we need to know about quality.
http://elsmar.com/Forums/showpost.php?p=304772&postcount=33
All,

Quality is a lot more than just fitness for use. It reminds me of another legalistic term. Lawyers like the term "fit for purpose" because you have to go to court to find out what it means!

To make quality manageable Crosby's definition is the most useful. Most people can understand the importance of making sure they understand the requirements, making sure they have the resources and controls (processes) to meet those requirements and then working to meet the requirements.

We have to remind ourselves that not all of the requirements are documented and that customer needs may remain hidden until they are elicited/revealed as requirements.

Designers of products (goods and services) are meant to convert customer needs into product requirements (specifications, drawings or images). Producers are meant to the eliminate waste from and add value with the processes for meeting the product requirements.

By doing this well we fulfill the requirements of people who invest in our ability to anticipate and meet customer requirements better that any other organization.

Quality professionals have become system professionals so the system helps everyone concerned to continually improve our ability to meet ever escalating requirements.

Quality = meeting all customer requirements (including timeliness, affordability and sustainability).

Customer = people receiving the results of my work, person or organization receiving, using, maintaining and recycling product, people affected by unintended by-products, investors, insurers, legislators and regulators of requirements from society.

Quality is much bigger than most people think. And customers are more numerous than most people think. :agree1:

Quality is not one thing it is the whole thing.

John
 

bobdoering

Stop X-bar/R Madness!!
Trusted Information Resource
#76
If it was only as easy as "fitness for use". More typically, it is "fitness to meet contractual and legal requirements". That being the case, you can have parts that are useful fit and finish, but do not meet the contract. Quality needs to deal with that. There is also the conditions where product is in spec, but still don't work (kind of like steel specs). Quality has to deal with that, too. So "just"? Nah.
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#77
If it was only as easy as "fitness for use". More typically, it is "fitness to meet contractual and legal requirements". That being the case, you can have parts that are useful fit and finish, but do not meet the contract. Quality needs to deal with that. There is also the conditions where product is in spec, but still don't work (kind of like steel specs). Quality has to deal with that, too. So "just"? Nah.
In Juran's definition of "fitness for use" I think meeting the contractual requirements would be included on the basis that the product might be withheld from use if contractual (or other) requirements weren't met.
 
S

Sorin

#78
A while back I went to Lowe's to get a small toolbox to keep in the kitchen--something to hold a few basic tools like a hammer, screwdrivers, pliers, etc. that would keep me from having to go to the basement every time I needed something.

The one I bought is pictured below, and the logo plate being skewed raised some interesting questions:


  1. a)Is the logo being off-center evidence of something that one should be concerned about?
    b) Does it mean that there's something deficient in the manufacturer's processes? The toolbox is perfectly functional, and does what I wanted it to do.
    c)Juran defined quality as "fitness for use"--is that a good general definition?
  2. If you were looking at toolboxes in the store and notices this "defect," would it cause you to buy a different product, all else being equal? If so, why?
  3. Assuming that you bought this toolbox would the "defect" have any influence on future purchases?
  4. Bonus question: Can you guess where the toolbox was manufactured?
1.
a)Yes
b)Yes
c)Yes

2.Yes or no depending on the price

3.If I bought it and notice the defect before paying, the answer to the question would be no.

4.Is that a tricky question? China/India


Edit: I apologize...did not look at the size of this thread before replying....
 
J

JaneB

#79
Quality is a lot more than just fitness for use.
This may depend on how you define 'fitness for use'. IN saying it's an inadequate description, you are perhaps thinking of it quite narrowly.

We have to remind ourselves that not all of the requirements are documented and that customer needs may remain hidden until they are elicited/revealed as requirements.
Sure - and to me, that is included in 'fitness for use'.

Quality = meeting all customer requirements (including timeliness, affordability and sustainability).
Again, to me that IS included in fitness for use.
 
B

Brunetta

#80
I really liked reading through this thread and wondered how I had missed it before. It was really fortunate that I ran across it as I was just putting together a presentation and one of the slides asked..."What is quality?"
I placed on the slide the ISO 9000:2005 definition, along with others a la Juran, Crosby, even ASQ's rather long definition.
Before I read this thread and the Markus quote (which is now my favorite - thank you, Jim) I really preferred this one from Peter Drucker.
“Quality in a product or service is not what the supplier puts in. It is what the customer gets out and is willing to pay for.”
 
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