Is Sales Required to be in Scope?

[RoxaneB]

Where is your Sales location based? We specifically stated Sales as they are located off-site.

 

[ralphsulser]

Our scope stated on our TS16949 certificate lists sales office in Detroit in addition to our plant scope. This was required by our registrar, We discussed it at length before our Stage 1 audit.
Check with your registrar for what they will require for your situation.

 

[Sidney Vianna]

It is not there

Dirk, the closest I get to your question would be answered in Section 5 of the Rules for achieving IATF recognition - Second Edition for ISO/TS 16949:2002 document. That section describes the TS certificate content requirements. bullet b) talks about the scope statement.

I don't know of ANY IATF mandate that would require TS registrars to enforce sales in the scope statement.

But, what puzzles me is: even if you agree to change the scope statement in your certificate, what significance would that have? I am sure that your sales process is part of your QMS and any sales remote site is being assessed as part of your TS certification. So, what problems would arise from allowing the registrar to issue you a new (and free) TS certificate? Or you are objecting to it, due to principle?

Hope this helps.

 

[jmp4429]

No.

Sales is off-site (sister company) and is not included in our scope.

We're up for re-cert this year though, so things may change.

 

[vanputten]

Yes, objecting on Principle

Hello Sidney:

You are correct. I am questioning the validity of the direction given to us by our registrar. They stated we *must* include sales in our scope statement. Where is that requirement documented? Says who? I want to know if this requirement, benficial or not, is made up or if there is really proof. I want to know about the integrity of our registrar.

So why not require the follwoing too? Marketing, HR, training, finance, product engineering, process engineering, package engineering, test engineering, test (for crying out loud), wafer sort, shipping, QA, quality engineering, feild engineering, legal, failure analysis, demoboards, mark & pack, tape & reel, marketing communications, customer service (!!!!!), order entry, samples, literature, assembly, fabrication,

Why aren't ALL of these required to be in the scope statement on our certificate.

Do I need to go on? Why is it that *sales* must be in our scope statement but none of the above things I have listed have to be in our scope statement? And what good is sales without revenue recognition, order entry, etc. We could have the best sales team but if we don't get paid for our sales, who cares?

I don't think it is a good idea to have sales in a scope statement. I think a scope statement should be a general statetment of capabilities and not specific departments. If your organizaiton provides a sales service, then I can understand. But in the TS world, we are all making parts. So why is Sales more improtant than anything else?

Is there anything else that MUST be listed in our scope statement on our TS certificate?

I can't wait until TS goes away (but it may never.... too bad!)

Regards,

Dirk

 

[Sidney Vianna]

For what it is worth

I am questioning the validity of the direction given to us by our registrar. They stated we *must* include sales in our scope statement.

I am surprised with this direction. From what I understand you saying, this is not another case of "AUDITOR-GONE-WILD" where sometimes, an ill advised, misled, incompetent auditor require certain things and the certified organization believes that the auditor's request reflects the registrar's policy.
It could be a case where your registrar was "written up" by the IAOB assessors and they are over reacting and imposing non-sensical requirements.
I agree with you. Tell them to show you the "shall" or stop wasting your time with non value added requirements.

It is frustrating to see so much dysfunction permeating the processes. If we remember the basics: Certification to TS 16949 exists to provide confidence to an automotive customer about the supplier's QMS is able to deliver what is being ordered!

How the inclusion of the word sales in the scope statement would boost your customer's confidence on your organization is beyond me...I could waste my time in much better ways...

 

[Helmut Jilling]

Dirk, the closest I get to your question would be answered in Section 5 of the Rules for achieving IATF recognition - Second Edition for ISO/TS 16949:2002 document. That section describes the TS certificate content requirements. bullet b) talks about the scope statement.

I don't know of ANY IATF mandate that would require TS registrars to enforce sales in the scope statement.

But, what puzzles me is: even if you agree to change the scope statement in your certificate, what significance would that have? I am sure that your sales process is part of your QMS and any sales remote site is being assessed as part of your TS certification. So, what problems would arise from allowing the registrar to issue you a new (and free) TS certificate? Or you are objecting to it, due to principle?

Hope this helps.

I think this is the key. The "Sales" process, or whatever you call it should likely be one of your defined processes. And, a remote Sales location would typically be listed on the cert, and audited. But, I agree it should not be in the scope statement.

In fact, one of the registrars I work for has declined to permit a client to include Sales in the scope statement.