Is the competence of third party auditors improving?

[silentrunning]

Our auditors have put excitement in ISO, believe it or not. They are on a mission to prove that American companies can be as efficient as any. Even though I am always nervous before an audit, I look forward to them because I know that a couple more "anchors" will be removed so that we can move forward. The fact that they also hold our owner's feet to the fire helps too.

 

[Helmut Jilling]

Our auditors have put excitement in ISO, believe it or not. They are on a mission to prove that American companies can be as efficient as any. Even though I am always nervous before an audit, I look forward to them because I know that a couple more "anchors" will be removed so that we can move forward. The fact that they also hold our owner's feet to the fire helps too.

Excellent! It sounds like you folks are going the right direction. I wish you great success!

 

[HSSE Auditor]

Sometimes you have to know how to entice the auditor to walk arduous yards.

I always thought dounuts only worked on the IT folks. Thanks for the advice.

 

[AndyJP - 2012]

Over the years I have seen both good and bad auditors. From ones that you could lead round by the nose. I ejoyed that audit to the one where the auditor must of been part of the inquistion in a past life:mg:

Which audit did both I and the compnay gain from. The one where the auditor was hard on us. Asked me questions I had to think about and struggle, at times, to show eveidence to the point of having to negotiate over how bad the non-conformity was going to be.

I have evolved my own view on these ISO 9000 / TS 16949 audits and view the inital assesment as a review of how well I have managed to implement the system, often to an organisation that only wants a bit of paper on the wall, to the continuing audits as a tool to help get the message of improvment over and help in knocking over walls that are in the way. When this happens the organisation gains and you gain. After all a thumbs up is great especially if you have been hitting your head on a wall for several months.

What gets my goat are auditors who are so wet and lacking in back bone that they do not pull a firms certification. Take a large UK based automotive tier 1 who have massive quality problems and doing nothing / very little about them apart from containment in house and at the customer. They have failed one TS audit already as have several other sites in the group. Now Mr auidtor comes in and looks at the documents he has been given consiting of half backed promises, half done actions all backed up with smoke and mirrors. Now as this "group" are large customers of the 3rd party firm and if they had theTS accrediation pulled they would loose any new work and most likely old work too. So Mr Auditor decides to put a tick in the box and say OK you have passed. Issues the auidt plan for next time and off he goes in to the sun set.

What has the firm gained - NOTHING! they think they can carry on sweeping the issues under the carpet. This is not fiction I was there as a contractor and trust me I got out very quick. As per previous posts no name no pack drill.

If all auditors were as good as the inquisitor the world would be good. If all senior managment were up for the auidt and wanted to be involved then the world would be even better.

One MD I worked with had to be told to go away as he was getting under my feet at the same place the owner flew in from the US just to be at the QS9000 audit and played a key part. The auditor was a good tough one and we all gained from that one especially as we passed at the 1st go.

I will now put my soap box aside for a while

 

[jem63]

Re: Could you define 'competence' of an auditor?

Any thoughts abouts why the auditors are getting lazier and more disinterested in the audit by the day? Mind you, your CB considers them competent and employs them. So what if you dont?

Possibly they dont get any incentives for doing good audits. Or maybe they get some disincentives.

We hear of so many systems having gone to dogs. How many had their certificates suspended / withdrawn? And with such performance, how many CBs had their accreditations withdrawn?

The rot cannot be stemmed unless the ABs tighten up their act and start withdrawing accreditations from those CBs who dont deserve them.

I think it is because they have been doing the same thing for many, many years and now they realize that they get paid the same to sit and talk rather than walk around and talk. I am sure many organizations enjoy the auditor that never leaves the conference room.

 

[Sidney Vianna]

Re: Could you define 'competence' of an auditor?

I am sure many organizations enjoy the auditor that never leaves the conference room.

You are correct. There are organizations out there that prefer that. The "bring-it-to-me-I-am-way-too-lazy-to-walk" approach to auditing.

 

[potdar]

Re: Could you define 'competence' of an auditor?

You are correct. There are organizations out there that prefer that. The "bring-it-to-me-I-am-way-too-lazy-to-walk" approach to auditing.

Its much worse. Many would provide you ith a continuous supply of donuts, coffee and small talk in the conference room to keep you from getting out. When you do, it will only be for an extended four course lunch.

 

[Helmut Jilling]

Re: Could you define 'competence' of an auditor?

Its much worse. Many would provide you ith a continuous supply of donuts, coffee and small talk in the conference room to keep you from getting out. When you do, it will only be for an extended four course lunch.

My impression is this problem is worse in some of the developing countries where ISO is newer. It is not well established there, perhaps. In the USA we also have this problem, but not nearly as much. Here, I don't think it is getting worse. None of the auditors I audit with. We do some of the audit in the conference room where we look at records, but we get out into the other areas, and definitely work all over the shop floor.

 

[potdar]

Re: Could you define 'competence' of an auditor?

My impression is this problem is worse in some of the developing countries where ISO is newer. It is not well established there, perhaps. In the USA we also have this problem, but not nearly as much. Here, I don't think it is getting worse. None of the auditors I audit with. We do some of the audit in the conference room where we look at records, but we get out into the other areas, and definitely work all over the shop floor.

I wont comment on that because I havent really seen what it is like in the USA. Talking of india, I wouldn't really call it a developing country where ISO is new. Just count the number of certified entities and their vintage.

Just now I have finished a call from one of my clients who had a very good QMS that I certified long ago for ISO. Today they are TS certified. They had called me to ask what they should be doing as they have a recertification due next month and the system is in a mess. They dont have a formal MR for last 6 months, havent conducted any internal audit or management review for over a year, dont have anybody in the organisation for doing APQP or PPAP..

I just told them to go ahead and face it. Nothing can be done in less than a month. I can bet with you today that that they will get recertified without any hitch.

I may add here that they are suppliers to Ford and GM. Ford is considering them for global sourcing and the audits by Ford are much tighter than those by the CB. Thats what really made them sit up and give me an SOS.

The Ford auditors get some incentive for doing a good audit. The third party auditors????

 

[ralphsulser]

If they are doing business with Ford, then they will also be expected to comply with Ford Q1, and all the Ford CSRs. The auditors from Ford have a lot of discersonary authority. If they want you to do something you cannot challange them and ask them to "show me the "shall".
One came in here in Janurary and demanded certain documentation functions.I completed everything requested. It took many, many hours.
That person took the buyout. In February another Ford auditor came in and said, "I don't want to see that", don't do it any more. Now, that person is gone, so who knows what's next.