Is the competence of third party auditors improving?

Is the competence of 3rd party auditors improving?

  • Yes, auditors are getting better

    Votes: 7 25.9%
  • No, auditors are getting dumber

    Votes: 6 22.2%
  • No change in my assessment

    Votes: 13 48.1%
  • Auditor competence is an oxymoron

    Votes: 1 3.7%

  • Total voters
    27
P

potdar

#21
Well these people have just started getting themselves assessed. The first report they get is full of red marks. Thats what has shaken them out of their deep slumber. The third party auditors never bothered to do that over last three years of TS and three years of QS before that.

My advise for the time being - if your CB has bought your crap for last six years, they will definitely buy it once more. They wont dare / bother suddenly discover that everything is gone bust. And I will not be a part of any half baked cover up effort.

What is to be done for qualifying the Ford Q1 can be seen at a later date.
 
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S

silentrunning

#22
If they are doing business with Ford, then they will also be expected to comply with Ford Q1, and all the Ford CSRs. The auditors from Ford have a lot of discersonary authority. If they want you to do something you cannot challange them and ask them to "show me the "shall".
One came in here in Janurary and demanded certain documentation functions.I completed everything requested. It took many, many hours.
That person took the buyout. In February another Ford auditor came in and said, "I don't want to see that", don't do it any more. Now, that person is gone, so who knows what's next.

This is exactly why I don't deal with automotive.
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#24
If they are doing business with Ford, then they will also be expected to comply with Ford Q1, and all the Ford CSRs. The auditors from Ford have a lot of discersonary authority. If they want you to do something you cannot challange them and ask them to "show me the "shall".
One came in here in Janurary and demanded certain documentation functions.I completed everything requested. It took many, many hours.
That person took the buyout. In February another Ford auditor came in and said, "I don't want to see that", don't do it any more. Now, that person is gone, so who knows what's next.

Darn. That was the whole point of standardizing around ISO / TS. Ford does not get it...and that is part of my continual rant about leadership being lacking at the Big 3. A heavy hand toward suppliers will not make it a more successful company. A collaborative effort however....now that would be a wonderful thing!
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#25
Re: Could you define 'competence' of an auditor?

I wont comment on that because I havent really seen what it is like in the USA. Talking of india, I wouldn't really call it a developing country where ISO is new. Just count the number of certified entities and their vintage.

Just now I have finished a call from one of my clients who had a very good QMS that I certified long ago for ISO. Today they are TS certified. They had called me to ask what they should be doing as they have a recertification due next month and the system is in a mess. They dont have a formal MR for last 6 months, havent conducted any internal audit or management review for over a year, dont have anybody in the organisation for doing APQP or PPAP..

I just told them to go ahead and face it. Nothing can be done in less than a month. I can bet with you today that that they will get recertified without any hitch.

I may add here that they are suppliers to Ford and GM. Ford is considering them for global sourcing and the audits by Ford are much tighter than those by the CB. Thats what really made them sit up and give me an SOS.

The Ford auditors get some incentive for doing a good audit. The third party auditors????:frust:

Actually, I think you are agreeing with my comment. India is coming on strong in number of certs, but the volume is relatively recent. The number of certs is large because the country is so large. In the US, it grew dramatically in the mid-1990's. In Europe, it began even sooner.

So, your infrastructure is relatively young. If the AB's do not take appropriate authority, and the CB's do not exercise integrity, it will get worse before it gets better. But, in a free market, these things ahve a way of slowly fixing themselves or withering away.

As India exports more and more to western customers, they will demand better quality and performance. What I frequently hear from US customers is they are beginning to realize many Chinese suppliers have low prices but very poor quality. They also seem to have an incredibly weak and low quality approach to ISO/TS, based on the many psots we read here at the Cove. They will have to fix this, or it will have an impact on their growth.

The quality, industry like any other, has quality players and low quality players.
 
P

potdar

#26
Re: Could you define 'competence' of an auditor?

Actually, I think you are agreeing with my comment. India is coming on strong in number of certs, but the volume is relatively recent. The number of certs is large because the country is so large. In the US, it grew dramatically in the mid-1990's. In Europe, it began even sooner.

So, your infrastructure is relatively young. If the AB's do not take appropriate authority, and the CB's do not exercise integrity, it will get worse before it gets better. But, in a free market, these things ahve a way of slowly fixing themselves or withering away.

As India exports more and more to western customers, they will demand better quality and performance. What I frequently hear from US customers is they are beginning to realize many Chinese suppliers have low prices but very poor quality. They also seem to have an incredibly weak and low quality approach to ISO/TS, based on the many psots we read here at the Cove. They will have to fix this, or it will have an impact on their growth.

The quality, industry like any other, has quality players and low quality players.

Well, I agree. Any quality system happening today in India is either self driven or customer driven. Unfortunately, none is third party driven or even third party controlled.

There are many good organisations with good quality systems, good quality products. They have won lot of international recognition. Many large multinationals have indian operations. many indian organisations have grown multinational.

Unfortunately, there is not a single CB that can claim to have aided in any fashion in any of these results. Not a single CB with the USP that says - If someone is certified by us, their QMS is impeccable.

With the volume explosion, everything is commercialised. Most good auditors got fed up and quit. Majority of the auditors today are part timers or freshers. Most do not have enough experience / exposure / domain knowledge.

Everyone is guilty of this dilution. How does an auditor, who was never qualified by his CB and AB to audit automobile over 10 years of auditing career get nominated for TS auditorship? And how does IAOB accept it? And then he gets qualified. And doesn't know how really to audit a GR&R.

The auditor quality has dropped. But then who should be blamed? The auditor? the CB? the AB / regulator? The customer? the industry? Oh! my :mad: can continue to end.
 

Antonio Vieira

Involved - Posts
Trusted Information Resource
#28
I have no doubts, each year here in Portugal we see much more incompetent auditors.
When I started 20 years ago, there were few quality auditors in the country, and everybody was always studying the standard and related issues.
Now, there are auditors working for certification bodies that hardly read all the requirements!
Sometimes I’m told by organizations I’ve helped with QMS implementation, about questions made by third party auditors that I just can’t believe!
I’m I getting to old for this?
:(
 

Jemos

Starting to get Involved
#29
The biggest challenge we face in Kenya and East Africa is that most of the auditors focus mostly on document and record control and hence they are not able to add value to the business as a whole. However some good ones do exist who examine the system in totality.
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#30
The biggest challenge we face in Kenya and East Africa is that most of the auditors focus mostly on document and record control and hence they are not able to add value to the business as a whole. However some good ones do exist who examine the system in totality.

That is common phase of inexperienced auditors. Perhaps they will outgrow it.
 
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