Is the competence of third party auditors improving?

[Paul Simpson]

Re: If anyone is remotely interested ...

Talk about a double standard....

That's the trouble - I always flip flop!

 

[GStough]

MAN! I hope so!

I have been lurking here forever...and finally have mustered the courage to state my concerns and observations.

I have been dealing with an incompetent CB auditor for over 5 years. Our goal get a certificate...his goal land a full time job at one of the several companies he has been auditing for us while living high on the hog with us "entertaining" him.

He manages to cycle the audits to support his golfing trips, hobbies and enjoys men's clubs.

This had been brought to management's attention and we knew, if his whims are met...we keep the certificate. :mg:

It gets more intersting... over the years it has always been the same stale and staggant "paper audit". Opening folders, shuffling paper, checking forms and NEVER performed a process audit.

Within the last year he wasn't sharp enough to see a REAL change that was taking place...the company designated a "group" to break out of status quo approach to quality (bribe an auditor for a certificate process) and put into place a "BPM group".

We had even shared with him some process mapping...he was like a dog watching a ceiling fan...something was going around him but it was all over his head.

With the BPM group...things suddenly started changing!

With Business Process Modeling...for the first time we were able to "show" in a diagram what we did! How things interfaced...acknowledged crippling silos...we could logically speak to issues that were hidden or not well known that were defective or in some cases absolutely un-needed.

After the modeling we could now analyze what and how we did things...we were able to identify areas for improvement. Imagine that! :mg:

Metrics were identified measurements have begun.

NOW suddenly our "auditor" is seeing the light. The gig is up! He has been found out. He brought nothing to us other than layers of frustration because we were still caught in the game of quick fixes to keep an auditor happy trap.

Want a big laugh! We are currently shopping for a new auditor because the former auditor finally landed a job here in one of the small companies he used to audit and get this...he didn't land a job in Quality but instead...SALES!

I am proud of my company for realizing that the offer and plan for BPM was the way out of the vicious cycle of "chasing a certificate" and has instead given us a path to seek real improvement without any undue interference from an incompetent auditor.

This may very well be my only post here...since I prefer to lurk...but before I sign off...I can assure many... if not all of YOU...I am sincere in giving thanks for the open discussions I have lurked through and all the different threads.

Thank you Marc for this forum, I suspect there are others like me who rely on the expert support and discussions, it gives people like me the courage to keep Quality alive and well.

again!

Welcome, antivenom! Glad you finally decided to post!

Wow, what an experience you described. Thanks for sharing! Please don't be a stranger and come back and post again. I'm sure you have much experience and knowledge to share.

 

[Paul Simpson]

We had even shared with him some process mapping...he was like a dog watching a ceiling fan...something was going around him but it was all over his head.

I am proud of my company for realizing that the offer and plan for BPM was the way out of the vicious cycle of "chasing a certificate" and has instead given us a path to seek real improvement without any undue interference from an incompetent auditor.

Congratulations to you. As a sad old cynic who spends too much time in the cove moaning and ranting it is stories like this that keep me going.

This may very well be my only post here...since I prefer to lurk...but before I sign off...I can assure many... if not all of YOU...I am sincere in giving thanks for the open discussions I have lurked through and all the different threads.

Like Gidget I hope this is not the case. We welcome the good news when it comes from people in the real world!

 

[ChrissieO]

Conference room approach to auditing is terrible. Auditors have to go where "the action is". Lazy auditors are a disgrace to the profession. How much objective evidence can be brought in to the conference room?

You are correct in being upset. When you pay a CB some good money for them to assess your system, you expect a professional, competent auditor. If I were in your position, I would call a CB representative and make sure you voice your discontentment.

Had you asked me this question 6 months ago my answer would of been totally different.

We to have experienced the conference room approach for the last 3-4 years with our 9001 auditor. We have now asked our CB to replace our auditor/client manager, which they have done and we have seen a great improvement with the new client manager/auditor.

As we are placed over 5 locations spread across the UK we are now using auditors local to the applicable site, this works well also not only because of a reduction in cost but also it allows us to use different areas of expertise in the different locations relevent to the function of that particular site.

Chrissie

 

[Chance]

http://www.irca.org/inform/issue12/INform.html makes for interesting reading.

Thanks for sharing this article. It is very informative especially that we are about to be audited for ISO certification.

 

[Helmut Jilling]

...
I have been dealing with an incompetent CB auditor for over 5 years. Our goal get a certificate......With the BPM group...things suddenly started changing!

With Business Process Modeling...for the first time we were able to "show" in a diagram what we did! How things interfaced...acknowledged crippling silos...we could logically speak to issues that were hidden or not well known that were defective or in some cases absolutely un-needed.

After the modeling we could now analyze what and how we did things...we were able to identify areas for improvement. Imagine that! :mg:

Metrics were identified measurements have begun.

... I am proud of my company for realizing that the offer and plan for BPM was the way out of the vicious cycle of "chasing a certificate" and has instead given us a path to seek real improvement without any undue interference from an incompetent auditor.

Congrats! You discovered the process approach really does work when done right.

This may very well be my only post here...since I prefer to lurk...but before I sign off...I can assure many... if not all of YOU...I am sincere in giving thanks for the open discussions I have lurked through and all the different threads.

don't be a stranger...

 

[Sidney Vianna]

We had even shared with him some process mapping...he was like a dog watching a ceiling fan...something was going around him but it was all over his head.

I seriously believe that a couple of necessary changes to the auditor competence determination process are:

• setting a minimum IQ level and testing auditor candidates for their intelligence quotient. (I am serious)
• testing auditor candidates about their ability to understand business processes

 

[Randy]

I seriously believe that a couple of necessary changes to the auditor competence determination process are:

• setting a minimum IQ level and testing auditor candidates for their intelligence quotient. (I am serious)
• testing auditor candidates about their ability to understand business processes

I guess that would put me close to the top with my having a MENSA # and an MBA w/3.85 average

 

[Ajit Basrur]

With no personal offence, I find that the competence of the auditors is going down.

There could be multiple factors and the major one being that the quality systems awareness amongst the auditees is much high higher and to top up, the knowledge on business processes, quality tools etc. makes them very "competent".

So if the competency levels between auditee and auditor are compared, I feel the auditor is lower.

Note: This would definitely vary from one region to another and from one body to another.

 

[AndyN]

With no personal offence, I find that the competence of the auditors is going down.

Probably in direct proportion to what clients are prepared to pay for their audits...:mg: