Is the up-dated ISO 9004:2009 needed to pass audit?

[AndyN]

Where is there a requirement to even have a master document list?

Your consultant is having you do something that isn't necessary. Which isn't that uncommon by the way.

Whoa, hold on a doggone minute there Musky! Maybe not, but how is someone going to get their 'arms' around what external standards the organization has, plus which version etc they have? And then, to maintain them? Sure a list isn't required, but it sure as heck makes some sense to me to do it that way, and I don't see an alternative being offered! The standard's full of things that need to be implemented, and this is one effective way to do it!

Randy, you haven't given an alternative, so if this is what they're doing, isn't that sufficient?

The issue is whether there's sufficient difference, in a guidance document to warrant the company even having it! It's nothing but guidance! From what I've learned, it's not considerably better than the previous one, so why does the poster HAVE to get the latest?

 

[ermoth]

I had a related question about ISO 9000.

The 2009 version of TS 16949 has a change in section 2 (Normative references) that states that "The following referenced documents are indispensable for the application of this document." ISO 9000: 2005 appears below this statement.

I've wondered if a registrar will now hassle us if we do not have this document. I figure they won't have much room for argument, since there is no shall...

 

[Qualqueen]

I had a related question about ISO 9000.

The 2009 version of TS 16949 has a change in section 2 (Normative references) that states that "The following referenced documents are indispensable for the application of this document." ISO 9000: 2005 appears below this statement.

I've wondered if a registrar will now hassle us if we do not have this document. I figure they won't have much room for argument, since there is no shall...

You might want to post this in a TS16949 thread.

 

[Qualqueen]

We're having our recertification audit on the 26th. I just realized that the Q9004 edition I have (2000) has been superceded by edition (2009). My question is do I need to have the new edition; would this be considered a finding? I have stamped the inside cover obsolete - reference only.

Is my question dead in the water???? Any more input?

 

[howste]

Is my question dead in the water???? Any more input?

I've stated my belief. There is no nonconformity if you have the 2000 version, since that's the version that you referenced in your master list. The external documents you should use in your system are the ones that your organization has determined to be necessary:

...documents of external origin determined by the organization to be necessary...

 

[howste]

I had a related question about ISO 9000.

The 2009 version of TS 16949 has a change in section 2 (Normative references) that states that "The following referenced documents are indispensable for the application of this document." ISO 9000: 2005 appears below this statement.

I've wondered if a registrar will now hassle us if we do not have this document. I figure they won't have much room for argument, since there is no shall...

They could certainly argue that since the document is "indispensable" for the application of the standard that it is required.

You might want to post this in a TS16949 thread.

This requirement is in ISO 9001:2008 also, so it's relevant. If you'd like, I can split this out to a separate thread though.

 

[Qualqueen]

This requirement is in ISO 9001:2008 also, so it's relevant. If you'd like, I can split this out to a separate thread though.

No thanks howste. I appreciate all the input and I now believe I have my answer. I'll let you all know how I make out next week. Again, thanks

 

[Randy]

Well then why not include this Thread as a reference document as well? Doesn't it meet the definition of "document" and isn't it being referred to as guidance as well?

Hey how about Webster's or the Oxford Standard just in case they were referred to for correct spelling or definitions. Or maybe Roget's Thesaurus?

And oh yeah, we can just forget about the keeping stuff up to date and this little tidbit taken from the FORWARD of ISO 9004:2009?

This third edition cancels and replaces the second edition (ISO 9004:2000), which has been technically revised.

Do you think the ISO meant anything by saying "This third edition CANCELS?"

Should a CANCELLED document be referenced or should the CURRENT document be referenced?

 

[howste]

Well then why not include this Thread as a reference document as well? Doesn't it meet the definition of "document" and isn't it being referred to as guidance as well?

Hey how about Webster's or the Oxford Standard just in case they were referred to for correct spelling or definitions. Or maybe Roget's Thesaurus?

And oh yeah, we can just forget about the keeping stuff up to date and this little tidbit taken from the FORWARD of ISO 9004:2009?

This third edition cancels and replaces the second edition (ISO 9004:2000), which has been technically revised.

Do you think the ISO meant anything by saying "This third edition CANCELS?"

Should a CANCELLED document be referenced or should the CURRENT document be referenced?

Well, the requirement document that the organization is certified to states this:

...documents of external origin determined by the organization to be necessary...

Here's what I said earlier:

Since it's not an externally required document, the document is only valid or invalid if the organization makes that determination.

I stand by that statement. The fact that ISO has cancelled (or withdrawn as the ISO website states) the document is relevant to ISO. However, ISO has no authority over their QMS to mandate the use of the latest version. The version of the document that is relevant to their organization is the one that they determined to be relevant.

Even ISO has set precedence for this interpretation. Here's what the current version of ISO 9001:2008 states:

For dated references, only the edition cited applies. For undated references, the latest edition of the referenced document (including any amendments) applies.

 

[hogheavenfarm]

Keep in mind, that section 0.3, "Relationship with ISO 9004" also states, "....However , it is not intended for certification, regulatory, or contractual use." So couldnt that statement negate the normative reference to it being 'indispensable'?
If it required, then it is indeed intended for certification, no?