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Is there any "rate the auditor" done on Elsmar or anywhere else?

M

MichelleN

#1
Hello there,

We've just had our re-certification audit (AS 9100) and "unbelievable" things occurred:

1. the quality manual did not include the standard clauses and the auditor was quite shocked to find that !!!
Explanation: I had updated the Manual to simplify it (remove pages of clauses copied from the standard!!) and to actually bring more value to the company. I reduced it to 18 pages from 38 and I could have reduced it even more!
I told the auditor (nicely) that there was no other provision on writing the manuals except what was required by clause 4.2.2. He accepted that but later he tried continuously to "prove" what value would bring the clauses added to the manual.

2. I added more visual aids in the manual, e.g the interaction of the processes, core processes, support processes, input, and output. It was actually the model of a business process. The auditor was again shocked and appeared not to clearly understand... asked many questions like how we audited that and others... He had prepared his audit plan according to processes chosen one year ago and it was difficult I suppose to change that (though we sent him the manual one month before the audit). We tried to be helpful and said that he could do whatever would be easier for him...

3. I prepared a risk management process for the company, with criteria and all the requirements (the company had nothing at that point). In the beginning it seemed complicated, but then we managed to reduce these criteria, and it was OK (we were able to analyse risk in ~ 5 min. Criteria: families of products based on the customer, part characteristics -new/existent part, price, difficult or not to manufacture- and the main operations). We could have reduced them even more, but did not have enough time to do it... (had just 1/2 a month to do everything!!)
When we presented the risk process the auditor was again shocked, why do we have such a complicated risk process?? He said he had simpler methods to show us. We had examples of risk done (analysed), and I was 95% convinced that he could not have raised us a non-conformance. But it's not normal for a third party auditor to act like that!!!
He could give us indications or advice and we would be more than happy to accept it, but not to force them on us, right? He should not make those types of comments...

My frustration is mainly because I am quite new to this company, and I wanted to do good things for them (lost a lot of time to prepare these, even at home and at weekends, neglected my family...) . How could I actually prove them that what I did was right? How could they trust me and not their third party auditor? In the end it was established that we would do exactly what the auditor advised, of course. :frust::frust:

I have many years of quality experience and training as a lead auditor and worked with many certification bodies before and had both types of the manuals (with and without the clauses) and nobody ever said something against...and whoever wanted to give us advice proceeded differently, not trying to impose it on us. And nobody appeared shocked of anything we had before (I even thought that maybe this auditor did not like something about me...) :(

We learn all our life and we continuously try to improve and when things like these happen, it’s like all you learn no longer makes sense... How could you, one person, new to the company, argue with the third party auditor (even a civilized argument!) when the people in that company are not trying but just to be veeeery nice with that auditor! (It should be right also to add that they are actually very nice to everybody...)

Thanks,
Michelle
 
Elsmar Forum Sponsor
#3
Michelle: Your CB should really provide you a means to feedback your experience, however, they may not. In any case, you should take up these issues with your CB's Operations management. You have a point of contact to go through? If so, ask them to direct you to the person responsible for auditor performance and then, fully explain what happened and why you want them to do something about it, including NOT sending the same one back.

One challenge a CB has is that some auditors do well in peer review, because they are under the eye of someone. When alone, they become a lone ranger, and their biases etc become impossible to detect, unless clients like you give feedback. Please, do NOT fear reprisal. If you do experience that at the next audit, complain to ANAB or the appropriate accreditation body.
 

Big Jim

Super Moderator
#4
From what others have said it should be clear to you now that you had a rouge auditor and it has nothing to do with you.

Since you are AS9100 registered you have access to OASIS, you may want to poke around there and see if there is anything about your auditor.
 
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Randy

Super Moderator
#5
You know what, in the end "P" on what the auditor likes! I'm an auditor and one of the 1st things I let folks know at an opening meeting is that it doesn't matter what I like, want, hope for, wish or desire "Are you doing whats required, and are you doing it effectively?"...Oh yeah, it doesn't have to be effective for me, it's just gotta work for you
 
B

Boingo-boingo

#6
Michelle: Your CB should really provide you a means to feedback your experience, however, they may not. In any case, you should take up these issues with your CB's Operations management. You have a point of contact to go through? If so, ask them to direct you to the person responsible for auditor performance and then, fully explain what happened and why you want them to do something about it, including NOT sending the same one back.
From what I understood in Michelle's post, top management at her organization would not want her to provide any negative feedback about the auditor to the CB.

Unfortunately, Michelle works for one of the those organizations that do not want to challenge the auditor. Whatever the auditor says is attended to. That would not be a problem if the auditor was competent and performed his/her role, as expected. When an third party auditor performs as Michelle described, they are damaging much more than the auditee's QMS and the CB reputation; s/he is damaging the whole concept of third-party auditing.

The bit that Michelle mentioned about the processes identified not matching what had been established a year ago, sounds like one of those situations where the auditor during the AS9100C transition process "identified" the processes on behalf of the auditee and now does not want to change them because the PEARS from the previous year can not be recycle, reused, copied and pasted....:mad:

Michelle needs to clarify one thing with her employer: is she there to help the quality system develop and improve, or was she hired to ensure the company passes the AS9100 audits? If the latter is the answer, she should be looking for a new job, because it can be very frustrating. With the new AS9104-1 requirement for the same lead auditor to be assigned to the organization for a max of 2 certification cycles and according to the IAQG resolution of mandating a change of auditors during the first recertification after the CB got approved for AS9104-1, the CB might have infringed that rule in this case and Michelle might be doing them a favor by reminding the CB about the rule.....;)

One challenge a CB has is that some auditors do well in peer review, because they are under the eye of someone. When alone, they become a lone ranger, and their biases etc become impossible to detect, unless clients like you give feedback.
That is so true. Auditors that are used to bully auditees become angels and sheep when they are being witnessed. Some, however, are so dumb that don't change their ways and get booted out of the scheme for showing utter lack of competence in front of AB auditors and Industry reps. It does not happen all the time, but there had been a few.

Since you are AS9100 registered you have access to OASIS. You may want to poke around there and see if there is anything about your auditor.
OASIS would provide information on the auditors grades (AA, AEA), dates of approval, AAB approving them and not much more. Could you please clarify what other information we could find in OASIS about an auditor? Thank you in advance.
 

Big Jim

Super Moderator
#7
OASIS would provide information on the auditors grades (AA, AEA), dates of approval, AAB approving them and not much more. Could you please clarify what other information we could find in OASIS about an auditor? Thank you in advance.
I must admit that I don't go on OASIS very often. I thought I had been told that OASIS captured negative reports about auditors. I went on a few minutes ago and poked around and found it like you posted, if you enter the auditor's name you can see the things you mentioned. I tried plugging in the names of several auditors I know, including some that had past issues, and nothing of that nature showed up. Sorry about the wild goose chase.
 
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Stijloor

Staff member
Super Moderator
#8
One of my Clients did not challenge the 3rd-party auditor about a completely unrealistic demand. The auditor got all hung up on his requirement that the (external) trainer who trained their internal auditors had to be a certified lead auditor. I advised the Client to challenge the issue and they did not want to hear about it. I lost the Client as a result of it.

Management? "Don't make waves, we just want to keep that piece of paper on the wall."
 
M

MichelleN

#9
Thank you all, it's nice to hear your opinion and to feel your support, even if I cannot do anything...
Andy, what Boingo Boingo said it's true: the company (the management) does not want to make waves.
 
#10
Thank you all, it's nice to hear your opinion and to feel your support, even if I cannot do anything...
Andy, what Boingo Boingo said it's true: the company (the management) does not want to make waves.
I feel your pain, however, I'd still recommend that you call and speak to someone. Your management may not wish to make waves and you can tell the CB that. If they are at all customer focused (that's YOU the customer) then they will do something and, if necessary, re-assign your auditor and make some excuse...maybe even stop using them, if they are a contractor. Every once in a while it happens. The CB management shouldn't over-react to you. But they do need to know what's going on.
 
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