Is there any "rate the auditor" done on Elsmar or anywhere else?

DannyK

Trusted Information Resource
Michelle,

I am an AEA Lead auditor with a registrar and also work as a consultant. I have heard similar stories of auditors providing "consulting". Several of my consulting clients have changed their processes because the lead auditor recommended to make a change. The customers thought it would be more important to please the lead auditor than to do something that works for them. I got very frustrated when I heard about this practice but the only thing I did was to tell the customer that it was their choice to make the changes.
Also in the opening meeting, the AS lead auditor should be explaining the rules of the audit that includes "no consulting".
 
M

MichelleN

Michelle,

I am an AEA Lead auditor with a registrar and also work as a consultant. I have heard similar stories of auditors providing "consulting". Several of my consulting clients have changed their processes because the lead auditor recommended to make a change. The customers thought it would be more important to please the lead auditor than to do something that works for them. I got very frustrated when I heard about this practice but the only thing I did was to tell the customer that it was their choice to make the changes.
Also in the opening meeting, the AS lead auditor should be explaining the rules of the audit that includes "no consulting".
Yes, he did that, of course. But in the end they were just words...
In Europe the CB used to bring one auditor from a different country when the company had a re-certification audit ...as a new set of eyes [not sure if that was a general requirement per Europe or just the company's(the CB)], though...I still have an example that it didn't matter too much (but it ended well)
Couldn't something like this be implemented elsewhere and maybe several other rules? Is it normal for a CB to send only one person to do a re-certification audit ?? Shouldn't be at least two people?
 
B

Boingo-boingo

I checked the thread but wasn't able to find any link to rating the auditors.
Michelle, you are correct; there is no link to an auditor rating database there. My intention was just to point out that there have been discussions in the past about the topic.

As discussed there, some real challenges would exist for the establishment of such feedback mechanism. For example, if you were to PUBLICLY disclose the details of your recertification audit where the auditor gave you grief, can you imagine the implications? Would you (and your employer) be prepared to debate the issue publicly if the auditor were to provide with his/her side of the story? In the US, where most Covers reside there is always the shadow of a costly legal battle.

If the feedback were to be anonymous, could it be trusted?
 
M

MichelleN

Yes, I understand the implications. This is why I thought about a link similar with rate my teacher or rate the doctor or rate the company (Glassdoor), and they are all anonymous. It may at least give you a general idea about the way his activity is perceived. If at least 70% of that rating is true, it would still be helpful. I suppose that the majority of the auditors wouldn't need to be concerned of this rating
 

Jim Wynne

Leader
Admin
I feel your pain, however, I'd still recommend that you call and speak to someone. Your management may not wish to make waves and you can tell the CB that. If they are at all customer focused (that's YOU the customer) then they will do something and, if necessary, re-assign your auditor and make some excuse...maybe even stop using them, if they are a contractor. Every once in a while it happens. The CB management shouldn't over-react to you. But they do need to know what's going on.

I'm not sure that encouraging insubordination is a good idea. This is a failure of the OP's management, but they're the ones who make the decisions and if an individual countermands a decision, guess who's at risk. If management makes a bad decision and an employee has done her due diligence in advising against the course of action (or inaction) that management has chosen, the employee has to decide whether or not the situation is worth losing a job over.
 
B

Boingo-boingo

Is it normal for a CB to send only one person to do a re-certification audit ?? Shouldn't be at least two people?
As AndyN mentioned, it depends on the number of audit days. While I agree with Jim Wynne's comment about not doing something not welcomed by your top management, I still believe that you could approach the CB and ask them about the IAQG Resolution #96, which reads
"Clarification for 9104-1, clause 8.3.8:

For transition to 9104-1, implementation of section 8.3.8 is retroactive. Whereby, if an audit team leader has been the team leader for a specific client for two consecutive certification cycles the CB shall remove the auditor from the team leader role, for that specific client, at the next re-certification audit, after the CB?s transition to 9104-1. Note: This only impacts audits going forward after implementation of 9104-1 by the CB and does not impact the clients certificate or previous audits that were conducted by the Lead Auditor where the Lead Auditor served more than two consecutive certification cycles.

Once an auditor has served as the audit team leader for a specific client for two full consecutive certification cycles and has been removed from the team leader role they shall not be assigned as the audit team leader again, for the specific client, until after the next re-certification audit (i.e. after one full certification cycle of 3 years). The auditor may serve as a team member during this time.

Note: The intent of this resolution is to ensure continued objectivity of the assigned audit team leader. "
You mentioned that the audit was a recertification audit and, almost certainly, your CB has already been transitioned to AS9104-1. So, if this "problem auditor" has been going there, as the lead auditor for the last 6 years (two certification cycles), the CB just violated an IAQG rule and they might be unaware of the fact. If you were to call them ask about this rule, you would be "helping" them and they would re-assign another auditor for you.

In case this "problem" auditor has not been the lead auditor there for two certification cycles, then the rule does not apply.

Good luck.
 
M

MichelleN

Once again, thank you.
I don't plan to do anything that would upset the management. If they are happy with the outcome, who am I to act differently? I was just hoping that some rating existed so I could show it.
I will use a different way to prove them that I was right ...
 
P

perim

He could give us indications or advice
No. An auditor should not offer advice. Full stop.

Consultancy and auditing are two different processes, and the two must never cross paths. It would be impossible for the auditor to ensure that he or she is objective in such a situation.

It sounds like you did the right things. At my company we had an auditor once that really did not work well with a dept manager, nitpicked on a lot of technical details and offering unwanted suggestions, and we complained to the organization that sent him. We never saw that auditor again.
 
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