Is Turtle Diagram an ISO/TS 16949 Requirement?

tony s

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#1
We have just completed our stage 1 audit for ISO/TS 16949. The auditor insisted that we must have turtle diagrams of all our processes. Is this a requirement?

We are aware that turtle diagram is a good tool for auditing and we are actually using it to support our preparation of our audit checklist. However, the auditor wants the turtle diagrams to be part of our company's QMS documentation as if like documented procedures that must be controlled. The auditor also wants it to be included in our quality manual.

I have been in a company before that was certified to ISO/TS 16949 by another CB and a bit familiar with the use of turtle diagrams. However, I would like to know what's your position concerning our current predicament.

Hoping for your usual help and informative comments.:bigwave:

tony s
 
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Jim Wynne

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#2
We have just completed our stage 1 audit for ISO/TS 16949. The auditor insisted that we must have turtle diagrams of all our processes. Is this a requirement?

We are aware that turtle diagram is a good tool for auditing and we are actually using it to support our preparation of our audit checklist. However, the auditor wants the turtle diagrams to be part of our company's QMS documentation as if like documented procedures that must be controlled. The auditor also wants it to be included in our quality manual.

I have been in a company before that was certified to ISO/TS 16949 by another CB and a bit familiar with the use of turtle diagrams. However, I would like to know what's your position concerning our current predicament.

Hoping for your usual help and informative comments.:bigwave:

tony s
There is no requirement for turtle diagrams. There is a requirement to define and explain the QMS processes and their interactions. How you do this is up to you. Ask your auditor to show you the requirement.
 
T

TuanJim

#3
We recently had a gap analysis where the auditor highly recommended turtles but said they were not required for the TS. I see great value in using turtles in the documentation and plan to follow that format. My thought is that the turtles helps me see the logic of the process.
 
#4
I have yet to see an effective QMS, documented using Turtle diagrams! They help, true, but most people have never ever encountered them and cannot describe how they are used, in my experience! They are helpful in gathering information about a process, but that's all. Once that's happened, process maps are far more useful for process owners/users, IMHO.
 

Howard Atkins

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#5
We have just completed our stage 1 audit for ISO/TS 16949. The auditor insisted that we must have turtle diagrams of all our processes. Is this a requirement?


tony s
Tony,

As usual if you have an auditor who says that this MUST be, ask him where in the standard it says this!

There is no requirement
 

tony s

Information Seeker
Trusted Information Resource
#6
Thanks fellow Covers.

Usually, in dealing with CBs, most organizations here are less assertive in explaining/defending their established system. So most of the CB auditors' findings are unchallenged. We always regard them as somebody who have better understanding of the words and meaning of the standards such as ISO/TS 16949.

Anyway, we've searched the entire ISO/TS standard from cover to cover including the Rules for IATF Accreditation 3rd ed, and as expected, we found nothing about turtle diagrams. What we found is this:

During creation of the audit plan consider the IATF Automotive Process Approach, “customer oriented processes”, support processes, “octopus”, and “turtle” models utilized during the IATF training/qualification course for third party auditors. See also, 1 Scope -1.1 General, and Readiness Evaluation Worksheet, IATF Guidance to ISO/TS 16949:2002.
- page 31 of Rules for achieving IATF recognition - 2nd edition
However, this IATF requirement is for the CBs to fulfill and not for the organization they are auditing.

We're just hoping that they won't raise this as an issue during the Stage 2 because we're really going to ask them "Where is the shall?"

tony s
 

Howard Atkins

Forum Administrator
Staff member
Admin
#7
Thanks fellow Covers.


We're just hoping that they won't raise this as an issue during the Stage 2 because we're really going to ask them "Where is the shall?"

tony s
As an auditor I prefer auditees that discuss these issues as it shows that they have a knowledge of the standard.

To my mind one of the biggest mistakes of auditors is to have a preconceived picture of how it must be done.

Keep us updated.
 

Mikishots

Trusted Information Resource
#8
We have just completed our stage 1 audit for ISO/TS 16949. The auditor insisted that we must have turtle diagrams of all our processes. Is this a requirement?

We are aware that turtle diagram is a good tool for auditing and we are actually using it to support our preparation of our audit checklist. However, the auditor wants the turtle diagrams to be part of our company's QMS documentation as if like documented procedures that must be controlled. The auditor also wants it to be included in our quality manual.

I have been in a company before that was certified to ISO/TS 16949 by another CB and a bit familiar with the use of turtle diagrams. However, I would like to know what's your position concerning our current predicament.

Hoping for your usual help and informative comments.:bigwave:

tony s
Nope, not a requirement. But I do like to use them - they really help in identifying inputs and outputs, support and linked processes.
 
S

Shoes

#9
Do you often find organizations have missed interactions or inflated the iimportance of some areas?
 
S

Steve Berian

#10
I'm taking the AIAG/IATF ISO/TS-16949 Auditor course this week, and THEY are pushing Turtle diagrams for us [potential 3rd party auditors] to use. They are advising us to use them as a tool in constructing audit questions.

I'm taking the course as a Corp. Quality Manager, so I can inturn guide my Audit Mgrs. as we prepare for TS registration. At this point, I'd say it's a toss-up whether they are more effective than a Functions X Responsibilities X Clause matrix, coupled with an Integrated Processes map, both of which are already required. I think it's yet more paperwork, which in an already VERY LEAN organization, no one has time for. After all we really DO want to ship 100% good product, & increase profitability, NOT kill trees!
 
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