Is zero defects possible? We are dealing with 25 to 30 parameters

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#11
Re: Is zero defects possible? We are dealing with around 300 parameters

I think it does not matter whether zero defects are theoretically possible or not. Let's say you make your goal zero defects, and you don't completely hit it but you get much closer than you are now. That would be a good thing, wouldn't it?
Better yet, why not make the goal process optimization? A process that has been optimized is performing as well as possible, given the known constraints. you must have a thorough understanding of process variation and the variables that contribute to it. It also means that there's no need for a phony ZD goal. Unreachable goals are bad.
 
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Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#12
Re: Is zero defects possible? We are dealing with around 300 parameters

Better yet, why not make the goal process optimization? A process that has been optimized is performing as well as possible, given the known constraints. you must have a thorough understanding of process variation and the variables that contribute to it. It also means that there's no need for a phony ZD goal. Unreachable goals are bad.

That would be a good approach (I won't nibble the hook on zd...)
 

bobdoering

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#13
For external defects, the other side of the coin is who is paying attention at the customer? You can have "zero defects" if you never "get caught". Does not mean they were never made....or that you are that good. Wait until they get a new inspector....
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#14
For external defects, the other side of the coin is who is paying attention at the customer? You can have "zero defects" if you never "get caught". Does not mean they were never made....or that you are that good. Wait until they get a new inspector....

I agree that zero defects internally is a difficult goal. But, I have seen many companies that maintain zero or virtually zero (3ppm or better) for long stretches of time. It is very doable, and is not an anomaly of poor inspection.

It is doable, but not easy.
 

bobdoering

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#15
I agree that zero defects internally is a difficult goal. But, I have seen many companies that maintain zero or virtually zero (3ppm or better) for long stretches of time. It is very doable, and is not an anomaly of poor inspection.

It is doable, but not easy.
I agree - especially if they are honest about their processes during the APQP process and put in sufficient (and correct) controls. Some folks succumb to economic fear (particularly from the sales department), and hope for the best...and get stuck sorting their way out of problem after problem in the long run. Ends up with phoney profit margins in the quoting process.
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#16
I agree - especially if they are honest about their processes during the APQP process and put in sufficient (and correct) controls. Some folks succumb to economic fear (particularly from the sales department), and hope for the best...and get stuck sorting their way out of problem after problem in the long run. Ends up with phoney profit margins in the quoting process.
Absolutely. Very foolish. We can't do it right, but we have the (time, money, resources...) to do it over! :confused:

When the third party sorting companies began buying buildings in Detroit, I knew it was going to get ugly in Automotive.
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#17
Absolutely. Very foolish. We can't do it right, but we have the (time, money, resources...) to do it over! :confused:

When the third party sorting companies began buying buildings in Detroit, I knew it was going to get ugly in Automotive.
I've always thought it would be very interesting to know how much of that third-party sorting was unnecessary--e.g., due to bad specifications, rather than bad parts. A lot, I suspect.
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#18
I've always thought it would be very interesting to know how much of that third-party sorting was unnecessary--e.g., due to bad specifications, rather than bad parts. A lot, I suspect.

A fair amount is due to unclear criteria and miscommunication.

The really amazing thing is I see companies with a history of 10 ppm or less, have 1 bad part, and be subjected to sorting (CSII). Now, the sorting is performed by temp workers sorting parts by hand doing visual inspection...to filter out one bad part in 10,000? didn't know visual inspection was THAT precise these days...:mad:
 

bobdoering

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#19
I've always thought it would be very interesting to know how much of that third-party sorting was unnecessary--e.g., due to bad specifications, rather than bad parts. A lot, I suspect.
Now THAT is Pandora's box!! :cool: There could be a whole thread on that issue!
 

bobdoering

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#20
A fair amount is due to unclear criteria and miscommunication.

The really amazing thing is I see companies with a history of 10 ppm or less, have 1 bad part, and be subjected to sorting (CSII). Now, the sorting is performed by temp workers sorting parts by hand doing visual inspection...to filter out one bad part in 10,000? didn't know visual inspection was THAT precise these days...:mad:
Yep...I've seen that. The ppm calculation really punishes those with lower ship volumes. I just love the concept of 200% visual sorting. Let's see....80% effectiveness of 80% effectiveness...hmmm...still not perfect. And then there are the third shift temporary visual sorters. Oh, boy...:bonk:
 
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