ISO 10004:2012 - Customer satisfaction - Guidelines for monitoring and measuring

D

DrM2u

#11
Re: ISO/TS 10004:2010 - Customer satisfaction - Guidelines for monitoring and measuri

All of the ISO Guidance documents can be put to good use. It just does not have to be via a CERTIFICATION ROUTE. If we already have tremendous disparity of interpretation and implementation with "clear cut" auditable, requirements-based standards, I can only imagine how much heterogeneity we would have with guidance documents.
Sidney, I am not disagreeing with what you are saying! All I am saying is that there is nothing to prevent an individual or an organization from offering the service of certification to a guidance document. As long as there are ignorant and/or uneducated managers and decision makers in this world (and there are plenty! :mg:) there will be a market for this type of certification offerings. It is not a matter of what is professionally and/or moraly right or wrong, it is a matter of finding and exploiting an opportunity to make money without getting in trouble with the law. Think business, not compliance and audit. Like I said before, ingnorance and stupidity are expensive treats for an individual or organization.
 
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Sidney Vianna

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#12
Re: ISO/TS 10004:2010 - Customer satisfaction - Guidelines for monitoring and measuri

Sidney, I am not disagreeing with what you are saying! All I am saying is that there is nothing to prevent an individual or an organization from offering the service of certification to a guidance document. As long as there are ignorant and/or uneducated managers and decision makers in this world (and there are plenty! :mg:) there will be a market for this type of certification offerings. It is not a matter of what is professionally and/or moraly right or wrong, it is a matter of finding and exploiting an opportunity to make money without getting in trouble with the law. Think business, not compliance and audit. Like I said before, ingnorance and stupidity are expensive treats for an individual or organization.
I agree with you, Dr. Over the years, we have established here at The Cove that anyone can be certified to anything by anybody. Certification of Management Systems is an unregulated activity (at least for the time being).

But show me an organization that gets certified to a guidance document and I show you a company that is much more interested in self promotion than actually making their systems robust.

A while ago, I started the thread ISO accepting complaints about Management System Certificates to ISO Standards I would not be surprised if some people were sending emails to the ISO point of contact about CB's issuing certificates against standards which CLEARLY state to the contrary. Not that ISO can do much about it, since the certificates are not accredited and ISO is not (technically) part of the accreditation food chain. But it would be interesting to see an expose' of CB's caught in this questionable practice and having to explain to stakeholders why were they issuing these certificates in the first place.
 
V

vanputten

#13
Re: ISO/TS 10004:2010 - Customer satisfaction - Guidelines for monitoring and measuri

Hello All:

I am not taking a position on this. I was just wondering how one would go about certification. I think the answer is a non-accredited certification. As Sidney points out, and I agree, anyone can become certified to anything. It all depends on what we mean by "certification."

Here is a link to evidence that DNV has provided a compliance certificate to PAS 99.

http :// www. dnv.com/resources/publications/dnv_forum/2009/forum_1_2009/isofordubaimaritimecity.asp - OBSOLETE BROKEN 404 LINK(s) UNLINKED - PLEASE HELP - REPORT POSTS WITH BROKEN LINKS

Thank you,

Dirk
 

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Antonio Vieira

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#14
Re: ISO/TS 10004:2010 - Customer satisfaction - Guidelines for monitoring and measuri

Now in Portugal it's being tried certification by good practices manuals...

:notme:


About this ISO/TS 10004:2010 does it value the 118 CHF, ISO is asking?
There are several books about this subject and for a cheaper price...
 

Sidney Vianna

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#15
Re: ISO/TS 10004:2010 - Customer satisfaction - Guidelines for monitoring and measuri

For those few interested in the contents of ISO/TS 10004:2010:
 

Sidney Vianna

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#16
Re: ISO/TS 10004:2010 - Customer satisfaction - Guidelines for monitoring and measuri

(I suspect a press release is forthcoming)
It only took a couple of months...:cool:
http://www.iso.org/iso/pressrelease.htm?refid=Ref1334
ISO has developed a new technical specification, ISO/TS 10004:2010, which provides guidance to organizations in establishing effective processes for monitoring and measuring customer satisfaction.

Customer satisfaction is one of the key elements for the success of an organization, whether in public or private sector..

The information obtained from monitoring and measuring customer satisfaction can help identify opportunities for improvement of the organization's strategies, products, processes and characteristics that are valued by customers, and which serve the organization's objectives. Such improvements can strengthen customer confidence and result in commercial and other benefits.

ISO/TS 10004:2010, Quality management – Customer satisfaction – Guidelines for monitoring and measuring, deals with:

Concept of customer satisfaction, and guiding principles
Framework for monitoring and measuring customer satisfaction
Planning for monitoring and measuring customer satisfaction
Processes for monitoring and measuring customer satisfaction
Maintenance and improvement of monitoring and measurement processes.
This technical specification is intended for use by organizations regardless of type, size or product provided. Its focus is on customers external to the organization.

It is not intended for certification or contractual purposes, nor is it intended to alter any rights or obligations under applicable statutory or regulatory requirements.

Mr. Lally Marwah, convener of the project comments: "All organizations – private companies and public sector agencies – have customers, and their satisfaction or dissatisfaction can have far-reaching consequences for the organization. The information gained from monitoring and measuring customer satisfaction as outlined in ISO/TS10004 is vital to quality management. It can guide the organization in taking actions to sustain or enhance customer satisfaction, and help in achieving the larger goals of the organization.”

ISO/TS 10004:2010 belongs to the ISO 10000 series of standards on customer satisfaction. ISO 10001:2007, ISO 10002:2004 and ISO 10003:2007 provide guidance on codes of conduct, complaints handling and dispute resolution. ISO/TS10004 complements these standards by providing guidance on monitoring and measuring customer satisfaction. Collectively, their guidance can assist the organization to take actions which can help to sustain or enhance customer satisfaction.

By providing guidance on monitoring and measuring customer satisfaction ISO/TS 10004:2010 supports the objectives, and is compatible with, ISO 9001:2008, Quality management systems – Requirements, and with ISO 9004:2009, Managing for the sustained success of an organization – A quality management approach.

ISO/TS 10004:2010, Quality management – Customer satisfaction – Guidelines for monitoring and measuring was developed by technical committee ISO/TC 176, Quality management and quality assurance, Subcommittee SC 3, Supporting technologies. It is available from ISO national member institutions (see the complete list with contact details). It may also be obtained directly from the ISO Central Secretariat, price 118 Swiss francs, through the ISO Store or by contacting the Marketing, Communication and Information department (see right-hand column).
 

insect warfare

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#18
Re: ISO/TS 10004:2010 - Customer satisfaction - Guidelines for monitoring and measuri

Hello Sidney:

How would an organization become certified to ISO/TS 10004? Do you mean a non-accredited certification?

From the draft of TS 10004:

"0.4 Statements regarding conformity
This Technical Specification is not intended for certification or contractual purposes, nor is it intended to change any rights or obligations under applicable statutory or regulatory requirements.

ISO 10002 has this statement: "This International Standard is not intended for certification or contractual purposes."

DNV offers certification to PAS 99 or at least they used to.

Thank you,

Dirk
Perhaps the problem lies in the phrasing of "not intended for certification...". This of course will almost always result in undesirable effects when something is "not intended" for this or that, unless you make the phrasing declarative, which ends up making it a requirement, thereby defeating the purpose of a guidance document. But even the "terms and definitions" section of a typical standard, technical specification or guidance document are (in my eyes) declarative enough to qualify as a requirement, based on the phrasing.

I know that on the bottle, my body wash says "not intended for use on hair" but I have been known to use it that way, because I choose to do so, and some people may think that's a bit daffy, but it is guidance and nobody is saying that it's against a law or regulation either. Conversely, if the product stated "Do not use on hair - may cause discoloration", then I would probably be deterred, and go back to using regular shampoo.

Maybe the same could be said for standards and guidance documents. Standards usually start off with information and guidance before delving into requirements. Conversely, maybe guidance documents should begin with requirements (that are airtight and ironclad) and then jump into the guidance. Maybe it's that way already - just needing some tightening.

A while ago, I started the thread ISO accepting complaints about Management System Certificates to ISO Standards I would not be surprised if some people were sending emails to the ISO point of contact about CB's issuing certificates against standards which CLEARLY state to the contrary. Not that ISO can do much about it, since the certificates are not accredited and ISO is not (technically) part of the accreditation food chain. But it would be interesting to see an expose' of CB's caught in this questionable practice and having to explain to stakeholders why were they issuing these certificates in the first place.
I would like to see this on "To Catch a Predator" with Chris Hansen holding all the chat logs. :lmao:

Brian :rolleyes:
 
B

Boingo-boingo

#19
Re: ISO/TS 10004:2010 - Customer satisfaction - Guidelines for monitoring and measuri

I know that on the bottle, my body wash says "not intended for use on hair" but I have been known to use it that way, because I choose to do so, and some people may think that's a bit daffy, but it is guidance and nobody is saying that it's against a law or regulation either. Conversely, if the product stated "Do not use on hair - may cause discoloration", then I would probably be deterred, and go back to using regular shampoo.
Not sure if the analogy applies. how you use body wash is not going to make a financial impact onto anyone's pockets.

When a certification body issues a certificate against a non-certifiable standard one should ask them: Do you read the standard in a selective manner? Why else, did you disregard the statement in the document which clearly states this document should not be used for certification purposes? How can you determine if a system is (or isn't) in "conformance" against suggestions?
 
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