ISO 10018:2012 - Quality management - Guidelines on people involvement and competence

Paul Simpson

Trusted Information Resource
#1
Hi, All. This is probably not the right place for this thread (as I couldn't make a new thread at the next level up) but I'm sure the moderators will be kind in putting it in the appropriate place. :)

I have volunteered ( :bonk: ) to take part in development of the above standard and, in the usual spirit of sharing (the burden) am inviting input from cove members as to what should be included in the guidelines.

The intent is that the guidelines will cover issues of competence, leadership, communications etc. as they relate to a quality management system.

Please feel free to post if you think:
  • it is a waste of taxpayers money
  • it's about time
  • you have any views as to what should go in the guidelines
 
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B

Benjamin28

#3
Re: ISO 10018 - People Aspects of 9001

It's an interesting venture to develop guidelines for something like this, however, I personally think this is not an item well suited to the format of ISO standards, primarily because people are involved and people are dynamic beyond a point of standardization. It's silly, imo, to try and standardize your ISO 9001 workforce to fit a picture perfect mold. I suppose you could lay out competency requirements, basic leadership tools and communication tools, but in essence you're making a list of what any good manager should already know and practice. Further, will this list be functional for the wide variety of ISO 9001 certified companies in the many different industries?

I'd actually like some elaboration on what the goal is with this standard. Honestly when I think of this standard I think:

Compliance to ISO 10018 = "our managers don't suck"

I'm interested in hearing your perspective...you are obviously interested as you are going to participate in developing the standard, so I'd be eager to hear what you hope this standard would accomplish.
 

michellemmm

Quest For Quality
#4
Re: ISO 10018 - People Aspects of 9001

Hi, All. This is probably not the right place for this thread (as I couldn't make a new thread at the next level up) but I'm sure the moderators will be kind in putting it in the appropriate place. :)

I have volunteered ( :bonk: ) to take part in development of the above standard and, in the usual spirit of sharing (the burden) am inviting input from cove members as to what should be included in the guidelines.

The intent is that the guidelines will cover issues of competence, leadership, communications etc. as they relate to a quality management system.

Please feel free to post if you think:
  • it is a waste of taxpayers money
  • it's about time
  • you have any views as to what should go in the guidelines
I think it is a great idea...
 

Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Staff member
Admin
#5
Re: Development of ISO 10018 - People Aspects of 9001 - Your thoughts?

The intent is that the guidelines will cover issues of competence, leadership, communications etc. as they relate to a quality management system.
That is a daunting task because there are so many variables at play. If the working group does not focus the scope of the document very well, it will be an insurmountable challenge to tackle. You should enquire the leadership of the team if you could post a copy of the current draft here. Typically, ISO allows for the "free" circulation of draft documents when the intent is to gather (potential) user feedback, as part of the document development and validation process. If I am not mistaken, that document is in Working Draft <WD> stage, at this point.

I salute you for volunteering your time. And may you have jumbo-size patience to deal with the very dysfunctional process of standards development.

I find somewhat disheartening to see so much knowledge and sound guidance in many ISO guidelines never put to use. 9004, 10002, 10014 being some of the examples.

ISOspeed to you.
 
Q

qualityboi

#6
Re: Development of ISO 10018 - People Aspects of 9001 - Your thoughts?

I think the 10018 is needed. People are the element that make ISO9001 effective. The standard by itself does not define, deploy, monitor and improve a system. There should be some set minimum standards of committment, responsibility, accountability, competence, awareness and communication from both management and individual contributors. Especially when the primary weakness I come across during audits is lack of management support and enforcement of our own quality system.
Benjamin 28 "...but in essence you're making a list of what any good manager should already know and practice" - that is what the 9001 standard is for a business anyway, why not take it down to the most important element, the people.

I think if the 10018 sets minimum standards that will give management a better understanding of what their role and responsibilites should be, rather than have different interpretations given to them from the quality folks.:)
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Randy

Super Moderator
#7
Re: Development of ISO 10018 - People Aspects of 9001 - Your thoughts?

Paul who came up with this?

Please don't use the "B" acronym if you can help it.:lol:
 
B

Benjamin28

#8
Re: Development of ISO 10018 - People Aspects of 9001 - Your thoughts?

I do understand the concept behind this idea, and I do applaud the attempt, I just don't think it's something which can be effectively improved through an ISO document. This kind of information is better suited to the plethora of literature already published on the matter. Any standard addressing this would, in my opinion, be an insufficient regurgitation of classic management theory and principles. Placing it into a standard, whether it be recommended practice, or requirements just strikes me as...well...silly.

I do apologize that my opinion on this lays against the grain, but it strikes a nerve with me. Maybe my perspective is not grounded in reality...but I do believe that running a business is a privelage, and if you don't know commonplace management technique, then you don't deserve that privelage.

Too often it feels as if these documents are just a way of admitting that the overwhelming majority of folks don't take pride in the work they do or the products/services they produce and are in fact, probably incompetent. And so we need to have them prove elsewise by proving compliance to a frivolous standard and I quite honestly am just annoyed and tired of the entire messed up system!

~END O RANT~
 
P

pldey42

#9
Re: Development of ISO 10018 - People Aspects of 9001 - Your thoughts?

For ideas you might try the Software Engineering Institute's People Management Maturity Model, details at

http://www.sei.cmu.edu/publications/documents/95.reports/95.mm.002.html

It's a similar idea to their Software Process Capability Model, which is a fusion of Deming's ideas on quality management with Crosby's management maturity grid and applied specifically to large-scale software development. It does not expect everyone to be the same, rather, it characterizes the processes an organization needs to develop human skill and talent (from a software perspective, so it would need adjusting to be more broadly applicable). In the early versions of the PMM, and perhaps the latest one too (haven't looked at it for a long time) I loved how they characterized managers of low maturity organizations as 'herding people from one disaster to another.'

Just a thought,
Pat
 
R

Ricardo Santos

#10
Re: Development of ISO 10018 - People Aspects of 9001 - Your thoughts?

I agree with Sidney (.... so much knowledge and sound guidance in many ISO guidelines never put to use. 9004, 10002, 10014 being some of the examples).But I think that standard will be of good value!!
 
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