ISO 14001 Clause 4.5.4 - Internal Audit - Must a company perform internal audits?

[adamsjh]

If a company has an external registering body providing pre-audit, registration, and surveillance audits, does that meet the intent of the 4.5.4 EMS audit clause? In other words, does the standard require that the company perform internal audits in addition to the (annual) external audits? In my intrepretation, internal audits are not required.

 

[Claes Gefvenberg]

Hey.... Welcome to the Cove

Im sorry to have to disappoint you, but I beg to differ. You are required to have internal audits.

ISO14001:1996, clause 4.5.4:

The organization shall establish and maintain (a) programme(s) and procedures for periodic environmental management system audits to be carried out...

The organization... That's you, I'm afraid.

/Claes

 

[db]

If a company has an external registering body providing pre-audit, registration, and surveillance audits, does that meet the intent of the 4.5.4 EMS audit clause? In other words, does the standard require that the company perform internal audits in addition to the (annual) external audits? In my intrepretation, internal audits are not required.

adamsjh, first of all, welcome to the Cove!!!

I have to agree with Claes. Not must you conduct internal audits, but I wounder why you wouldn't. Any good third-party auditor will tell you he/she is just verifying your audits. Internal audits are (at least should be) the REAL audits! I would have serious concerns about any organization which was trying to avoid them.

 

[Randy]

I just went through this dance number with a company this week in a training class and and another company previously during an audit.

A competent 3rd party auditor will nail your prad to a board if you don't do your internal audits....oh yes, also audit your audit program and your auditors too.

 

[Jennifer]

Hi Randy,
You mentioned "oh yes, also audit your audit program and your auditors too." Can you recommend or suggests ways other company's are fulfilling this requirement?
Thanks in advance,
Jennifer

 

[Randy]

Hi Randy,
You mentioned "oh yes, also audit your audit program and your auditors too." Can you recommend or suggests ways other company's are fulfilling this requirement?
Thanks in advance,
Jennifer

Other company's are auditing their audit program for effectiveness, the competence of their auditors and the coverage of their audit program over the system.

Everything in the system, including the audit program, is auditable and must be audited by the organization. If I, as a 3rd party auditor, see that you are not auditing your audit program as required by 4.5.4, I'll have no choice in my course of action.