ISO 14001 - Should we list the standard itself in clause 4.3.2

Mortalis

Involved In Discussions
#1
Hello,

We just went through our 1st internal audit provided by a 3rd party.

One of the things that was noted was that we should list the standard itself in clause 4.3.2 Legal and other requirements.

I replied that I felt that a gotcha situation and listing the standard to which you are complying to within itself was a circular reference.

I probably should have argued that the standard does not apply to the environmental aspects.

What do you think? Should the standard be listed in the document that listed the legal and other requirements for clause 4.3.2?

TIA
 
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JoShmo

#2
Hello,

We just went through our 1st internal audit provided by a 3rd party.

One of the things that was noted was that we should list the standard itself in clause 4.3.2 Legal and other requirements.

I replied that I felt that a gotcha situation and listing the standard to which you are complying to within itself was a circular reference.

I probably should have argued that the standard does not apply to the environmental aspects.

What do you think? Should the standard be listed in the document that listed the legal and other requirements for clause 4.3.2?

TIA
I'm confused... "We just went through our 1st internal audit provided by a 3rd party." So, was this an internal audit or a register audit?

If it's internal (not a "third party, that's the register) then the internal auditor is messin with ya and you might want to check their competency to do the audit. If it was a register auditor then they are messin with ya and you should complain.
 

Randy

Super Moderator
#3
I'm confused... "We just went through our 1st internal audit provided by a 3rd party." So, was this an internal audit or a register audit?

If it's internal (not a "third party, that's the register) then the internal auditor is messin with ya and you might want to check their competency to do the audit. If it was a register auditor then they are messin with ya and you should complain.
Where's the confusion? This week, as a contracted 3rd party, I'm doing an internal EMS audit
 

Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Staff member
Admin
#4
It seems to me that, what is being referred as a "3rd party-performed" internal audit is, in reality, an outsourced internal audit.

An internal audit, by definition, is a first-party audit, which can be performed with internal or external resources.
 
Last edited:

Randy

Super Moderator
#6
If you are a register auditor, yes. If not it's just an internal audit.
Yep, it's internal but I'm independant and impartial of the organization, so as Sidney said it's an outsourced internal audit conducted on a 3rd party basis but not as a registrar auditor
 

Randy

Super Moderator
#8
Yeah, just list the standard, it's an "other" requirement that you're obligated to fulfill (Check out the Guidance in A.3.2 of Appendix A in the back of your standard... "-voluntary principles or codes of practice")

If you do list it what can happen? Nothing

If you don't list it what can happen? Arguments, finger pointing, pooping on each others dinner plate, name calling and then list it anyway to be done with it
 

Mortalis

Involved In Discussions
#9
@Randy
I cannot argue with your logic.
I am just a minimalist and cant abide by circular references.
But again, I cant argue with the logic.
When in doubt, list it!

Thanks to all for your valuable input.

It's good have ya'll back.
 
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