ISO 17025 External Calibration Laboratory Requirements within ISO/TS 16949

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#21
Agree with Jim.
Some additional questions: which kind of tool is it? what is your usage?
Do you other situations like this that could jeopardize your calibration system?

Bottom line, I do not understand yet the reduce service you have from this supplier. If they are ISO 17025 certified, they shoul follow the procedure to give you the right service and not reduced service of which I do not undestand the differences.:bigwave:
Unfortunately, it's common practice in the US for accredited calibration services to provide two different types of certificates--one that attests to the calibration being performed in accordance with ISO 17025, and for a lesser price, a certificate that does not. It doesn't necessarily mean that the calibration itself is performed any differently, or is inherently less reliable.
 
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qusys

Trusted Information Resource
#22
Unfortunately, it's common practice in the US for accredited calibration services to provide two different types of certificates--one that attests to the calibration being performed in accordance with ISO 17025, and for a lesser price, a certificate that does not. It doesn't necessarily mean that the calibration itself is performed any differently, or is inherently less reliable.
Ok, I did not know.
It seems if an organization chooses this looks like to make an own goal, offering the side to a non conformity as it happened.
It confirms that the cost saving never means earning!:(
 

Hershal

Metrologist-Auditor
Staff member
Super Moderator
#23
Jim is correct, and the levels of certificate may not be limited to two. Each level of certificate comes in such instances with additional cost. However, if you do not have the traceability path and uncertainty you do not have traceability and that may be the heart of the non-conformance.
 

BradM

Staff member
Admin
#24
Unfortunately, it's common practice in the US for accredited calibration services to provide two different types of certificates--one that attests to the calibration being performed in accordance with ISO 17025, and for a lesser price, a certificate that does not. It doesn't necessarily mean that the calibration itself is performed any differently, or is inherently less reliable.
:agree1:

Although... I have seen a few instances where a calibration provider has multiple sites. They will have the "low cost" calibrations performed at the non-accredited site. They then run this site with significantly lower training and documentation costs, and sometimes, less trained (and thus, less expensive) personnel.
 

howste

Thaumaturge
Super Moderator
#25
Unfortunately, it's common practice in the US for accredited calibration services to provide two different types of certificates--one that attests to the calibration being performed in accordance with ISO 17025, and for a lesser price, a certificate that does not. It doesn't necessarily mean that the calibration itself is performed any differently, or is inherently less reliable.
:agree1:

Although... I have seen a few instances where a calibration provider has multiple sites. They will have the "low cost" calibrations performed at the non-accredited site. They then run this site with significantly lower training and documentation costs, and sometimes, less trained (and thus, less expensive) personnel.
I believe that the key is whether they did the calibration at an accredited site using the process that is accredited. The company is apparently accredited to ISO 17025, and their scope includes the calibration that was performed. However, if the calibration was performed at another site that isn't accredited, then it's a nonconformity. If the lab followed a different process to calibrate than they would for an accredited certificate, then it's a nonconformity. If the calibration was done at an accredited site with the same procedure that's accredited, and the calibration record contains all that's required in TS 16949 clause 7.6.2, then I don't see a problem.
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#26
I believe that the key is whether they did the calibration at an accredited site using the process that is accredited. The company is apparently accredited to ISO 17025, and their scope includes the calibration that was performed. However, if the calibration was performed at another site that isn't accredited, then it's a nonconformity. If the lab followed a different process to calibrate than they would for an accredited certificate, then it's a nonconformity. If the calibration was done at an accredited site with the same procedure that's accredited, and the calibration record contains all that's required in TS 16949 clause 7.6.2, then I don't see a problem.
How can we determine objectively if the calibration was performed "using the process that is accredited" if the lab doesn't provide a certificate to that effect? The whole idea of the two-tier certificate thing is that evidence of accredited calibration is being held for ransom, and the lab won't certify to using an accredited process unless you pay for it.
 

qusys

Trusted Information Resource
#27
How can we determine objectively if the calibration was performed "using the process that is accredited" if the lab doesn't provide a certificate to that effect? The whole idea of the two-tier certificate thing is that evidence of accredited calibration is being held for ransom, and the lab won't certify to using an accredited process unless you pay for it.
Agree with Jim.
We asked to justdavew32 in many posts if his organization showed some evidence such as the calibration certification, but we did not clear response.
The risk is also that the organziation could have lots of situation like the one where they took the non conformity.:bigwave:
 

LUV-d-4UM

Quite Involved in Discussions
#28
We had the same nonconformity because the external calibrator did not have our instrument being calibrated in their scope of calibration. Apparently ISO17025 certified calibrators must have the specific equipment calibrated listedin the scope.
 

BradM

Staff member
Admin
#29
We had the same nonconformity because the external calibrator did not have our instrument being calibrated in their scope of calibration. Apparently ISO17025 certified calibrators must have the specific equipment calibrated listedin the scope.
:agree1::yes:

Absolutely. Their scope defines what they have demonstrated proficiency doing.

Imagine you have some pressure devices in your facility. You send it to a lab that has : 0-150 PSIG in their scope. However, you have a differential room pressure gauge (0-2 Inches W.C.)

While it is still pressure, the low pressure range encompasses a fairly different set of test equipment and processes, whereas an uncertainty analysis may not have been performed. And... how much training/ experience does that technician have calibrating low pressure equipment?

So, when they return a "Fail" as the as-found, one might be left wondering if the device failed solely on it's own error, or if the process contributed significantly to the error.
 
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