ISO 50001 - Manual and instructions

[reunalla]

Hi,
I need some advice. Our company is currently implementing ISO 50001, we already have ISO 14001, an ISO/TS 16949. We are working with a consultant to do this.
We have so far a manual, an related work instructions from the other 2 management systems which we are reviewing accordingly. But we also identified some processes that we did not regulate in any WI. The consultant says that it is enough to write a couple of sentences related to those processes in the manual and I argued with him that a manual is not enough since it not clearly defines the task, when and how to do it.

So what is your opinion, is in some cases enough only the manual or do I need to write WI on every major processes? I do not want to overregulate the system but we basically only have one manual, and 5 not so closely related docs from the other 2 systems (on internal audit, document control with record retention, waste management; form for energy baseline). But we identified my task/processes what needs to be done, and I feel that only mentioning them in the manual might not be enough.

Thank you,
Patrícia

 

[Jen Kirley]

A quick "Bump" - Does anyone have a response for Patricia?

 

[gpainter]

With having systems in place, it makes sense to only have one Manual rather than 3. It is a fairly simple standard and when it comes to energy management, depending on the size of the organization, the group is lean. One of the pitfalls mentioned in the guidance document, which I would get a copy of, mentions not to make it too complex. Remember it is your system, not the auditors. It needs to work for you and benefit your organization. Just curious, have there been any Customer demands for this?

 

[reunalla]

Hi.
Thanks for your feedback.
No customer demands regarding this. We are a worldwide company with many locations and it is company standard to have the ISO 50001 certification.

We already have group certification together with all Europian locations but we would like to have a system which actually works and we could benefit from it. (we are the bigest manufacturing location in the EU, 2000+ employees).

For the other 2 sytems (HSE & QMS) we do not have a manual (yet) - it is long story but on corporate level we have a so called Business Operating System manual with 750+ pages which is not really matching the standards' requirements but it is not audited on my location and accepted by the certification body but the auditors always complaining about it.

I want to start with having manual for ISO 50001 system then to have one manual for the 3 management systems later. My 5 year plan to have an integrated system with one manual but it is not entirely up to me, I just want to lay down the base for it ( for our other location I already wrote an integrated manual and I am 50% ready with the documented processes but that is a special location and only around 60 employees, they are not manufacturing plant much simpler)

I think my base issue is that this consultant doesn't do anything and he is rather incompetent which makes me frustrated an confused on the standard's requirement but it is not my task to fire him . He is working for us for 4 months now and we do not have a single finished document yet.

 

[Trebor123]

all consultants I have found are the same - Earn/charge big money and dont do anything !!! cheaper and quicker to do it yourself and save the company money !!!! £££

 

[Sidney Vianna]

I want to start with having manual for ISO 50001 system then to have one manual for the

Please be aware that ISO 50001 is under revision and the next edition of the standard will use the High Level Structure framework.

I was a member of the US TAG to the TC242 for a while and, for the most part an EnMS (Energy Management System) should rely on little documentation for implementation and improvement. For the most part, you focus energy efficiency and improvement on personnel behavior and technology improvement and advancement. Both rely very little, in my estimation on "manuals and procedures".

So, when it comes to EnMS, be very careful not to over document it, if you want to really have a sustainable system.
Remember that, when it comes to ISO Management System Standards, the goal is not to have a system of documents, but, and instead, a documented* system.

*documented to the extent necessary it serves the purpose of control and improvement.

 

[JoShmo]

all consultants I have found are the same - Earn/charge big money and dont do anything !!! cheaper and quicker to do it yourself and save the company money !!!! £££

What did you expect them to "do"? Consultants - if you understadn the word - are consulted. They "do" by giving guidance etc. Consultants that "do", but writing gobs of paperowrk etc are to be avoided...

 

[reunalla]

"Remember that, when it comes to ISO Management System Standards, the goal is not to have a system of documents, but, and instead, a documented* system."

I fully agree with you but relating EnMS I do not have any docs which tells HOW people have to do things. In the manual I identified 11 WIs I need, from which I have 8 available in either HSE or QMS docs. ( the manual itself ended up 12 pages in big fonts)

We have a really overdocumented system which is a mess to work with I am primary responsible for QMS, and we have global and regional documens above 1000 (!), and local was over 500 general QMS related docs (WI and forms, without the technical manufacturing docs and HSE docs) which I succesfully reduced by approx. 100 docs in the last 1,5 year since I work here. And still planning to reduce the remaining ones by using integrated docs for the HSE, QMS and EnMS systems. We already started to cooperate with the HSE system engineer on this matter.

So I do not really want to create more docs, but after I went over the manual the consultant gave us and reviewed it I decided to have the above mentioned 3 additional WI-s. And I just needed to rewrite approx. 3/4 of the stupid document since the guy did not consider our companies rules, my request for terminology, correct grammar and spelling.

I fully agree that we would have been finished by now without the consultancy That was just a huge waste of money and time.

Thanks for your feedbacks.

 

[gpainter]

And it is not the consultants system either.