ISO 9000 Management Review in a Small Company - Everyone knows what's happening

T

Tom Goetzinger

#21
Much depends on how involved dad (managing director) is in the business and how much influence he has on the employees. I could very easily see that the son (general manager) really runs the business and influences behaviour more than dad who is in and out of the business. While the registrar would be correct in being suspicious and investigating, I think to assume that the registration is "smoke and mirror" is too harsh a conclusion.
 
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Kevin Mader

One of THE Original Covers!
Staff member
Admin
#22
Tom,

You caught me projecting again (sorry, but I often do). But I must stick to my guns on this for now. Is my position harsh? I guess it is the perspective by which an individual views the system. I am a top down individual. Granted 'dad' may not have a huge hand in the day to day operations and is just around long enough to raise some dust and leave, yet this is who has the ultimate charge for Quality (even if he delegates, it truelly isn't an item that can be, IMHO). Quality is born in the boardroom. Should the leader of the board show little interest (especially when he pays for it)? Above that, should he break the rules? What kind of leadership does he provide? While the son runs the shop and folks know he is the go to guy, they will notice the behavior of dad and a few will use this to their advantage. Meantime, the son runs around doing damage control (not even corrective action) trying to smoothe things over. Nonvalue added, but necessary. There is a better way.

Anyway, I'll cut this projection short. Back to the group...
 
D

Don Winton

#23
I just wrote him out of the system.
While 4.1.3 requires “management with executive responsibility…” it does not require ALL “management with executive responsibility…” and ISO 900x does not require management commitment, although it greatly influences success. The word ‘commitment’ can be found only at 4.1.1 which requires:

…supplier’s management with executive responsibility shall define and document its policy for quality, including objectives for quality and its commitment to quality.
A registrar may be able to stretch this to a noncompliance, but I doubt it.

I have had to do a similar situation here, but not for the reasons cited above. The President of my firm is physically located in the corporate office, approximately 800 miles from the manufacturing facility. The corporate office is outside the scope of this registration. He visits manufacturing approximately six hours a month, mainly to discuss business operations. His commitment to the system is high and he demonstrates it each time he visits, but this condition did create a management review problem.

While this situation is tricky, it can be done. The procedures for Management Review were written such that the President is involved in management review but does not have to attend review meetings (Besides, review ‘meetings’ are not even required). He provides input through advanced notice of meetings, an agenda and a request to reply by return his inputs. If none, he states “none” and the meeting is conducted between myself and the VP’s. If he has inputs, there are discussed at the meeting, with myself as the President’s liaison. Afterwards, he is provided minutes of the meeting stating his involvement as outlined above, and signed acceptance of the minutes is requested by return, which he does faithfully. While 4.1.3 does not REQUIRE procedures, the above is very well documented in them, probably to the overkill point, but I wanted my FDA bases covered.

Besides, when it comes to our ISO and FDA system, I have the last and final word, not the President and the employees (including the VP’s) know this.

Perhaps a variation on the above may be useful in Michael’s situation. I would recommend not ‘writing him out,’ but rather include him indirectly through procedures.

As to Kevin’s comments regarding the negative impact of dad’s behavior, I would tend to agree in part, but I will withhold judgement without knowing dad’s involvement in operations and how seriously employees regard dad, as Tom correctly pointed out. If they know he is a ‘loose cannon’ and the son really runs the show, that should be considered as well. This was exactly the case at one company I worked for. Dad owned the company, but did not run it. His only involvement in day-to-day operations was to arrive when he wanted, smoke cigars, read the paper, sign checks and then leave when he wanted. The employees knew who ran the show (Executive VP-his son) and there was virtually no trickle down effect from dad’s behavior (other than the cigar smell from his office).

I think to assume that the registration is "smoke and mirror" is too harsh a conclusion.
I agree within the confines of the concerns and comments stated in my previous paragraph.

Regards,
Don
 

Kevin Mader

One of THE Original Covers!
Staff member
Admin
#24
Don,

What if dad is breaking the rules and does not follow procedure (i.e. avoiding POs)? As CEO, he has a responsibility to the Quality Program and System, even if he does not lead the program itself (I won't go there). He must follow the program or risk creating nonconformances to be detected by the Registrar. If you were the Registrar and you found materials being ordered outside of the channels by the President, what conclusions might you reach?

I'll concede that my statement, while I think accurate to the information provided, may have been inclusive of Cigar Smoking Dads. But a whisper of cigar stench and avoidance of a documented daily work activity are different (one a comment, the other a nonconformance).

What do you think?

Regards,

Kevin
 

Kevin Mader

One of THE Original Covers!
Staff member
Admin
#25
Don,

I agree with all points made, I made many assumptions based on "traditional paradigms". Perhaps our individual perspectives (mine, yours, Michael's), developed by our own preconceptions of our own experiences within our own Quality Systems, lead us to this discussion. I enjoy dsicussions like this, as it does create moments of reflection for me, that without, would probably feed into the paradigms that control the development of my perceptions. Again, no right or wrong about it so I make no apologies for that or expect them either. I hope no one feels misplaced or bad about discussions like these, as I don't think (my projection) that folks are malicious. We are all products of the Systems we inhabit and are influenced as such. Enough said on that for now.

I will make comments based on my own experiences, my own traditional views if you will, that in retrospect, illustrate the control living in a system will sometimes have on a person. Funny that it seems my pessimism draws out the blind spots. But that is part of my personal CI program, so in many ways I am grateful for these experiences.

Regards,

Kevin
 
D

Don Winton

#27
I will preface this with: Anyone who has read my posts knows I believe there is a distinct difference between ‘compliance’ and ‘effective systems management.’ They are entirely different and should be considered within the scope of an assessment. I did not mean to imply that Michael’s system was ideal, much less desirable, just that it may (or may not) be workable within an ISO 900x system for compliance. It is definitely undesirable within the scope of ‘effective systems management.’ And I agree with Kevin’s points that ‘quality’ begins in the board room. But as I stated earlier, ‘compliance’ and ‘quality’ are different. With that said:

From Michael:

refuses to use purchase orders
From Kevin:

If you were the Registrar and you found materials being ordered outside of the channels by the President, what conclusions might you reach?
ISO 9001; Section 4.6.2(b) states, in part:

define the type and extent of control exercised by the supplier over subcontractors. This shall be dependent upon the type of product, the impact of subcontracted product on the quality of final product…
Is Dad ordering parts that affect final product? Answer: Not known with available data and further information is not available.

Is Dad ordering parts that are inside or outside the ‘extent of control exercised’ with subcontractors? Answer: Not known with available data and further information is not available.

Is Dad ordering parts without a ‘review and approv[al of] purchasing documents for adequacy of the specified requirements prior to release.’ Probably, but depending upon the answers to items one and two, this may or may not be relevant.

Findings on 4.6.2(b): None. Concerns: Three.

Comments: Requires further investigation. The President of the Company appears to function outside the quality system and scope of ISO 9001, but at this time, there is not enough objective evidence to issue a noncompliance.

The purpose of an assessor is to determine compliance, NOT noncompliance. Of course the above assessment would also have to include the organization’s procedures as required by 4.6.1, but these are not available for this exercise.

He must follow the program or risk creating nonconformances to be detected by the Registrar.
As you can see from above he has created a risk, but (using available data) not to issue a noncompliance. Besides, if Michael has been effective at ‘writing him out,’ his role may not come up in an assessment, but that is unlikely due to various portions of 4.1.

From Michael:

wanders in and out of the business
Not a noncompliance.

never attends any training sessions
Not a noncompliance.

moans about cost of implementation
As long as compliance is maintained to clause 4.1.2.2, not a noncompliance.

I will state once again, the situation described by Michael is not desirable nor does it enhance or add to an effective systems management method. Kevin’s comments and observations are perceptive and should be taken into consideration. Tom’s observations are also astute and should be given due attention. But, the system of compliance is defined by the organization, not the registrar (ISO 9001; Section 4.2.2). If more assessors realized this, things would be simpler.

Just the ramblings of an Old Wizard Warrior.

Regards,
Don

[This message has been edited by Don Winton (edited April 28, 1999).]
 

Marc

Hunkered Down for the Duration with a Mask on...
Staff member
Admin
#28
From: ISO Standards Discussion
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 07:09:31 -0600
Subject: Re: Making Effective Management Reviews /Hitchcock/Fairchild

From: Jamie Fairchild - weld-tech-engineering.com

Al,

I'm not sure exactly what you have tried thus far, but, here's what I did for what it's worth...

I asked each manager (functional and administrative) to develop a 5 min. overview for the yearly management review that addressed the following questions:
* What have been your quality successes?
* What are your quality measures?
* Where do you see opportunities for improvement?
* What are your training goals?

In my opinion, it worked out really well. Each manager got a little uncomfortable and nervous about being held accountable for quality in front of their peers. Most of the managers talked for more than 5 min. (that's good and bad). After that review, I have seen a significant increase in the personal commitment of each manager to quality, and a sense of personal accountability.

This list of questions addresses some of the key issues here. You could develop whatever questions seem appropriate for your organization.

Jamie
 

Marc

Hunkered Down for the Duration with a Mask on...
Staff member
Admin
#29
Some comments from the 'masters'!
-----snippo-----
From: Michael Dillon
Subject: Re: Q: Mgt Review Checklist /Gazley/Dillon
Here are some minimum guidelines, I am sure that others may wish to add to
this list......
1. Make sure that the appropriate Managers with executive responsibility
attend the review (don't send the Security Guard to sit in for the
President or the Quality Manager.)
2. Hold the review as often as needed (you decide when and how often, just
make sure you do it when you're supposed to)
3. Decide if your quality system is effective in meeting the ISO standard
4. Decide if your system is effective in meeting your quality policy
5. Decide if your system is effective in meeting your quality objectives
6. Review any actions taken as a result of implementing preventive actions
within your quality system
7. Keep documented records of the review that show who was in attendance,
when you held the review, what you talked about, results of the review
including any action items and determination of effectiveness of the system.
How you decide if your system is effective and what tools you use to determine this is up to you. There are many who will suggest that you should talk about certain topics such as internal audits, corrective actions, training, etc.. and these topics do carry a LOT of weight when reviewing effectiveness. It is also a good idea to share the results of the review with all pertinent managers and employees.
Good Luck...
Michael J. Dillon
RAB Quality Systems Lead Auditor
GeoQuest.slb.com

------snippo---------

From: shawnmewborn
Subject: Re: Q: Mgt Review Checklist /Gazley/Mewborn
Here is the generic agenda we put together to meet both our and the ISO requirements.
I. Overview of the Quality Management Review Process and Purpose
II. Status of Action Items
III. Review of Business Unit Metrics for the Quarter
IV. Status of Actions to Reduce Client Complaints
V. Results of Internal Quality Audits
VI. Corrective and Preventive Actions
VII. Open Discussion on Quality Issues
- QMS Effectiveness
- Survey Results
Roman Numeral I. would be done only the first/second time around.
Hope this helps.
shawnmewborn

-----snippo-----

From: "Lambert, Ron"
Subject: RE: Q: Mgt Review Checklist /Gazley/Lambert
Bare bones minimum.
Meeting minutes become a record. Records show the three A's ... Agenda, Attendees, Action items. Reviews are part of the ISO continuous improvement loop (w/corrective/preventive action and internal auditing.)
Ron Lambert
Internal audit manager

-----snippo-----

From: Bill Cox
Subject: Re: Q: Mgt Review Checklist /Gazley/Dillon/Cox
One important thing I'd add that nobody has mentioned yet is Resourcing.
Look at 4.1.2.2 and add an agenda item to Mgmt. Rev. to address whether this is being accomplished. Late audits, non-timely corrective actions, delinquent procedure updates, etc. are evidence of inadequate time/priority resourcing, and suggest mgmt. commitment may not be there.

Regards,

Bill Cox
 

Marc

Hunkered Down for the Duration with a Mask on...
Staff member
Admin
#30
One more for the road...

----snippo-----

From: ISO Standards Discussion
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 07:09:48 -0600
Subject: Re: Making Effective Management Reviews /Hitchcock/Arbuckle

From: Don Arbuckle

This may not be the type of answer that you are looking for, but I will post it anyway...

First, if the top management team is not taking responsibility for the QMS, then you may be asking too much. Second, the fact that "***your*** present system defines ownership to the executive committee" tells me something right there... They probably view it the same way, specifically, "your" system.

I would suggest a talk with the top executive, behind closed doors. The conversation should *not* revolve about your feeling that the system is not supported, although that is where you want it to end up. Take the tack that the management reviews are not accomplishing anything productive, that they are a waste of time and no real improvement of the QMS happens there. (be prepared to explain why, using appropriate amount of detail and quotes from others...) See what he/she says. He/She will either agree or disagree.

If he/she agrees, remind them that the Mgmt Rev is an ISO requirement and that an ineffective Mgmt Rev places the registration at risk. Since it is a requirement, what can be done to make the review more effective? You might consider placing the Mgmt Rev process on the Corrective/Preventive Action system and see where it ends up. Do a *real* root cause analysis!! (suggestion: place it there as a preventive action so as not to frighten execs)

If he/she disagrees, then develop a plan to help the others on the staff "see" this person's vision. Use the previous ideas to help cement the concepts and actions into a comprehensive and effective review.

Either way, there will have to be a serious discussion with the top exec and then with the others. Explain how the QMS goes beyond QC and QA and demonstrate how improvements will add to the bottom line. $peak in terms that Top Mgmt understands - if you catch my drift!

BTW - I have used this as a consultant many, many times, but usually early on in the implementation, so we don't get part-way down the road and find out the QMS is not supported by Exec.Mgmt.

Good luck, and feel free to call if you have further questions...

Don Arbuckle
(623) 979-0732
 
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