Registration of Multiple Offices
From: ISO Standards Discussion
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 08:57:37 -0600
Subject: Re: Multiple offices / Buchanan/Kozenko
Listers -- this one reads harsh, but I couldn't help it. The lack of proper understanding (I remember when I had this lack of misunderstanding, so this is a qualified statement) comes from not understanding what a Registrar does in the overall scheme of things, and how treacherous the ISO world can be with "not enough" internal training...
<<Buck Buchanan wrote: << Our Dallas office (Telecom and computer cables manufacturing) is working on ISO9001 registration with completion expected by February. The home plant (Chicago) may not elect to become ISO9001 registered. >>
Chicago must be treated (by Dallas) as a "supplier" under the Purchasing clause; bet Chicago will love that, especially "supplier audits." Once your Registrar finds this weak spot, Dallas will have a difficult time maintaining a quality life.
<< We have changed our name from Southwest NAC, a division of North American Cable, Inc. to North American Cable Company, Inc., Southwest Division. So now we are both the same company -- Dallas will be ISO9001 registered, Chicago not registered.>>
Full Stop: You could "slip one by" the various Secretaries of State by signing up under Texas and Illinois Corporations Commissions using the same name, yet having separate offices, officers and directors, bank accounts, payrolls, and the like -- a "trademark infringement" on your own firm, as it were... this doesn't sound quite up and up to me at first read; in fact, I remember my first "real" job right now, which involved driving the truck to the fish market... Clarify please, are you incorporated or organized under one charter, or two separate charters? Or in other words, what's the actual chain of liability, from the customer up?
<< Many of our products are sold and shipped through the Chicago office, but manufactured here in Dallas (Chicago does very little manufacturing). My question from a meeting yesterday is: What have other companies with branches (some registered, some not) done in these cases? >>
The multi-site "same name" companies that I have dealt with thought this one through (with a little help from their consultant <g>) and decided that it's "all or nothing" in terms of displaying any kind of ISO900x banner to the public, until each and every one of the sites was included in a registration scope. The underlying thinking was, "If we get caught by the marketplace pulling the wool over people's eyes, it would only harm the company twice as bad as any improvement from ISO registration would help it." Another approach, though, would be to use a map that color codes those firms that are, and are not, ISO registered. Blue and Green would fit best in this case too, because colorblind people generally can't differentiate between those two, and the message I'm getting from your post is that this is what your firm wants...
<< Can our invoices and other documents all carry the ISO logo in a prominent location or must we list both addresses on the documents with the logo only alongside the address that's registered? >>
The former would be a violation of the Registrar's policies (promulgated by the Registrar's Registrar...) as it would clearly mislead anyone who didn't have inside knowledge that only half of the two addresses shown were actually registered. Why advertise a lie as part of your quality system? When your Registrar found out you were doing things this way, the Salvation Army would really make a windfall on the paper you'd have to throw away; every printer in town would be happy to, as you re-printed everything correctly. Do it right the first time. And, don't ask your Registrar about this one in advance -- it will telegraph the fact that a strict audit would be in order.
<< Can all products manufactured in the registered plant carry ISO9001 certification, regardless of the route taken to the customer (through the Chicago office)? >>
If products bear an ISO Registration mark (like, a written report by a consultant, which would bear the Registration Mark on the Letterhead), it must be clearly shown that the mark refers to the company's Quality Management System and specifically NOT to the product itself. If a soup can bears a Registration Mark then there's trouble -- soup cannot be ISO Certified/Registered; the company's quality system who makes the soup can be ISO Certified/Registered.
All Registrars have form letters that (essentially) say "refer to the guidelines on Registration Mark use that you received upon your initial Certification, and (without so much as a whimper) destroy all non compliant printings, postings and unauthorized useages immediately. your Registrar may elect to suspend your Registered status as you accomplish this trash task, and don't believe everyone in the industry won't find out about it.
Products are not certified; Entities' Quality Management Systems are certified. There is no middle ground or grey area, and any money your firm would like to bet on a closer exploration of that precept would be better spent as a donation to United Way, the American Red Cross, etc.
With this kind of thinking running rampant in your organization, maybe someone can wrestle its essence on down to the surface of a new no-stick fry pan. You'd make millions.
David Kozenko
From: ISO Standards Discussion
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 08:57:37 -0600
Subject: Re: Multiple offices / Buchanan/Kozenko
Listers -- this one reads harsh, but I couldn't help it. The lack of proper understanding (I remember when I had this lack of misunderstanding, so this is a qualified statement) comes from not understanding what a Registrar does in the overall scheme of things, and how treacherous the ISO world can be with "not enough" internal training...
<<Buck Buchanan wrote: << Our Dallas office (Telecom and computer cables manufacturing) is working on ISO9001 registration with completion expected by February. The home plant (Chicago) may not elect to become ISO9001 registered. >>
Chicago must be treated (by Dallas) as a "supplier" under the Purchasing clause; bet Chicago will love that, especially "supplier audits." Once your Registrar finds this weak spot, Dallas will have a difficult time maintaining a quality life.
<< We have changed our name from Southwest NAC, a division of North American Cable, Inc. to North American Cable Company, Inc., Southwest Division. So now we are both the same company -- Dallas will be ISO9001 registered, Chicago not registered.>>
Full Stop: You could "slip one by" the various Secretaries of State by signing up under Texas and Illinois Corporations Commissions using the same name, yet having separate offices, officers and directors, bank accounts, payrolls, and the like -- a "trademark infringement" on your own firm, as it were... this doesn't sound quite up and up to me at first read; in fact, I remember my first "real" job right now, which involved driving the truck to the fish market... Clarify please, are you incorporated or organized under one charter, or two separate charters? Or in other words, what's the actual chain of liability, from the customer up?
<< Many of our products are sold and shipped through the Chicago office, but manufactured here in Dallas (Chicago does very little manufacturing). My question from a meeting yesterday is: What have other companies with branches (some registered, some not) done in these cases? >>
The multi-site "same name" companies that I have dealt with thought this one through (with a little help from their consultant <g>) and decided that it's "all or nothing" in terms of displaying any kind of ISO900x banner to the public, until each and every one of the sites was included in a registration scope. The underlying thinking was, "If we get caught by the marketplace pulling the wool over people's eyes, it would only harm the company twice as bad as any improvement from ISO registration would help it." Another approach, though, would be to use a map that color codes those firms that are, and are not, ISO registered. Blue and Green would fit best in this case too, because colorblind people generally can't differentiate between those two, and the message I'm getting from your post is that this is what your firm wants...
<< Can our invoices and other documents all carry the ISO logo in a prominent location or must we list both addresses on the documents with the logo only alongside the address that's registered? >>
The former would be a violation of the Registrar's policies (promulgated by the Registrar's Registrar...) as it would clearly mislead anyone who didn't have inside knowledge that only half of the two addresses shown were actually registered. Why advertise a lie as part of your quality system? When your Registrar found out you were doing things this way, the Salvation Army would really make a windfall on the paper you'd have to throw away; every printer in town would be happy to, as you re-printed everything correctly. Do it right the first time. And, don't ask your Registrar about this one in advance -- it will telegraph the fact that a strict audit would be in order.
<< Can all products manufactured in the registered plant carry ISO9001 certification, regardless of the route taken to the customer (through the Chicago office)? >>
If products bear an ISO Registration mark (like, a written report by a consultant, which would bear the Registration Mark on the Letterhead), it must be clearly shown that the mark refers to the company's Quality Management System and specifically NOT to the product itself. If a soup can bears a Registration Mark then there's trouble -- soup cannot be ISO Certified/Registered; the company's quality system who makes the soup can be ISO Certified/Registered.
All Registrars have form letters that (essentially) say "refer to the guidelines on Registration Mark use that you received upon your initial Certification, and (without so much as a whimper) destroy all non compliant printings, postings and unauthorized useages immediately. your Registrar may elect to suspend your Registered status as you accomplish this trash task, and don't believe everyone in the industry won't find out about it.
Products are not certified; Entities' Quality Management Systems are certified. There is no middle ground or grey area, and any money your firm would like to bet on a closer exploration of that precept would be better spent as a donation to United Way, the American Red Cross, etc.
With this kind of thinking running rampant in your organization, maybe someone can wrestle its essence on down to the surface of a new no-stick fry pan. You'd make millions.
David Kozenko