ISO 9001:2000 Clauses 7.4.3 & 8.2.4 - Incoming inspection records - need your input

M

mshell

#11
Even if parts the parts do not require inspection, someone probably verifies that the packing list and the purchase order match (i.e. part number, quantity, description). While this is not a formal inspection the person is verifying the receipt of what was ordered.
 
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J

Jim Howe

#12
Claes Gefvenberg said:
Very good question Craig,

First of all I think we’re all agreed that it usually is a good idea (regardless of how the standard is interpreted) to keep records from verification of purchased product. And so we shall… If we decide that keeping records is necessary to ensure that the purchased product meets the requirements. I’m certain that most of us decide that it is.

I would suggest that the key clause here is in fact 7.1d. What records do we need to ensure that processes and resulting product meet requirements? Those are the records we must have. But: What if we decide that no inspection of purchased product is necessary?
:agree1: I agree Claes, my current employer does not perform receiving inspection per sey. We perform a supplier qualification and a first piece. After that we are pretty much a dock to stock system. Why would a company want to perform inspections for something the supplier is responsible for.

At another company we were the supplier to three (3) different ISO certified companies and they did not perform receiving inspection. In fact, it was our job (as supplier) to not only deliver to the dock but deliver and stage the products in the required bins on their manufacturing floor. For the most part each product was bar coded and we would scan the code on the product and on the bin which updated the customers inventory and secured payment of invoice. Further, should a problem develop, we had to send in teams to correct the problems. So not all ISO certified companies perform receiving inspection. :cool:
 
#13
Jim Howe said:
my current employer does not perform receiving inspection per sey. We perform a supplier qualification and a first piece. After that we are pretty much a dock to stock system. Why would a company want to perform inspections for something the supplier is responsible for.
Yes, why indeed? Perhaps because that's been the generally accepted course of action for longer than we care to think about?
Jim Howe said:
At another company we were the supplier to three (3) different ISO certified companies and they did not perform receiving inspection. In fact, it was our job (as supplier) to not only deliver to the dock but deliver and stage the products in the required bins on their manufacturing floor. For the most part each product was bar coded and we would scan the code on the product and on the bin which updated the customers inventory and secured payment of invoice. Further, should a problem develop, we had to send in teams to correct the problems. So not all ISO certified companies perform receiving inspection. cool.gif
Right. Some don't, which brings us back to 7.4.3:
ISO9001:2000 said:
The organization shall establish and implement the inspection or other activities necessary for ensuring that purchased product meets specified purchase requirements.
This is "other activities, of course, but back to Craig's original question: When we do perform the verification ourselves: Are records always required?



/Claes​
 

Mike S.

Happy to be Alive
Trusted Information Resource
#14
Let me put on my "lawyer-like technicality hat". Okay, I'm ready.

The question to TC 176 was, "Does Clause 7.4.3 require records of the verification of purchased product?" The answer was "No" with no explanation.

I agree with TC 176. Because 7.4.3 does not require records to be kept.

Clause 8.2.4, however, does require the records.

So, if the question is "Does Clause 7.4.3 require records of the verification of purchased product?" the correct answer is no.

If the question is "Does ISO 9001-2000 require records of the verification of purchased product?" then the answer is yes.

JMO.

I will remove that hat now as it hurts my head. :bonk:
 
M

M Greenaway

#15
What about monitoring and measurement of process ?

Is your goods inwards inspection record a measurement of your purchasing process ?
 

Howard Atkins

Forum Administrator
Staff member
Admin
#16
As Mike said I am putting on my lawyer's hat. Whether one should or should't record verification of purchased material is irrelevant for the sake of Craigs question.

As the initial question was
The dispute relates to whether records are required when purchased product is verified. My buddy says no, based on this RAB interpretation of section 7.4.3,
There is no argument that there is no need for records according to this clause, the discussion has been about showing that other clauses require these records.
I claimed that the definition in ISO 9000 of product excludes the use of 8.2.4,
as seen here Craig disagrees,
ccochran said:
Great discussion. Consider this—

ISO 9000:2000 defines product as the “result of a process.” With this definition, there is no doubt that purchased product is a PRODUCT.
....
Craig
I agree that this is the definition of product but if one studies the Scope of ISO 9001:2000 then in the note to this clause 1.1 it says
NOTE In this International Standard, the term “product” applies only to the product intended for, or required by, a customer.
Thus the product of 7.4.3 is not a product that should be measured in 8.2.4
Now we have the point raised by M Greenaway who points to the requirement of measuring processes in 8.2.3.
This is a possibility but not necessary, the clause says "The organization shall apply suitable methods", these are in your hands and as long as you can show "the ability of the processes to achieve planned results." you can choose any manner you wish.

Question, is it a requirement to measure every single process in the organisation?

Please remember that RAB is not the only accreditation body in the world. Any inputs?
 
#17
Great discussion

Howard Atkins said:
Thus the product of 7.4.3 is not a product that should be measured in 8.2.4
Sorry Craig, but I have to agree with Howard here.

Howard Atkins said:
Now we have the point raised by M Greenaway who points to the requirement of measuring processes in 8.2.3.
This is a possibility but not necessary, the clause says "The organization shall apply suitable methods", these are in your hands and as long as you can show "the ability of the processes to achieve planned results." you can choose any manner you wish.
Yes, I agree to that as well.

Howard Atkins said:
Question, is it a requirement to measure every single process in the organisation?
No.



/Claes
 
M

M Greenaway

#18
Claes

Where does ISO define which processes must be measured such that you can give your categorical 'no' answer to the question - must all processes be measured ?

Howard

What if I buy something, do nothing to it, and sell it on - how does that fit in your definition of 'product' ?
 
C

ccochran

#19
"...intended for, or required by, a customer"

If the purchased product is used to fulfill customer requirements (such as equipment that comes in contact with the customer) or is incorporated into the final product (such as raw materials or components), then it is definitely “intended for, or required by, a customer.” Otherwise, we wouldn’t be buying it, would we?

The note you referenced is primarily used to narrow down the extremely broad definition of product being the “result of a process.” In this definition, an audit report would be a product, but the requirements of 8.2.4 obviously don’t apply to an audit report (unless our business is providing auditing services to customers).

Great discussion…

Craig
 

Mike S.

Happy to be Alive
Trusted Information Resource
#20
ccochran said:
If the purchased product is used to fulfill customer requirements (such as equipment that comes in contact with the customer) or is incorporated into the final product (such as raw materials or components), then it is definitely “intended for, or required by, a customer.” Otherwise, we wouldn’t be buying it, would we?
FWIW, that's the way I would interpret it.

All this is just another example of how ambiguous ISO 9001 can be. :bonk:
 
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