ISO 9001:2000 Internal Audit: Someone PLEASE find me the "Shall" on "Process Audits"

RoxaneB

Change Agent and Data Storyteller
Super Moderator
Claes Gefvenberg said:
That would seem to be it, but if auditors just took the time to tag each finding to the proper clause in the proper standard I really don't see why this should be happening at all ??? Or am I missing something?

No, you're not. That's why when the Auditor is about to issue the finding, if the Auditee does not feel it is valid, the question should be asked to have the "shall" and/or clause highlighted in the finding. If the Auditor is unable to do this, then the finding has no merit.

Auditors are people, too (or so I've been told), and can make mistakes. Auditees need to believe in their own systems, their own compliance, and not blindly accept what the Auditors say as being the whole truth.
 
D

dbzman

My two cents worth

While reading this thread I have come to the conclusion that third party auditors have not done the homework needed to understand the standrd like they should.
Our company has recently had two facilities registered to ISO9001:2000 and re-certified to QS9000, in combination. Now that was confusing!

The auditor went to our Reidsville plant first and almost walked out when he found out that they were still auditing to the procedures. The auditor called me (I coordinated these activites for the plants) then I called our corporate Quality Manager, he called the auditor, who called his office, before this was cleared up.

The auditor said that the audits need to be "Processed based". The Corporate Quality Manager said that the Level II procedures are the processes.

Go figure.

We had less trouble when he came to our plant because of a process audit checksheet that I used that I found on the COVE.

Thanks you COVE!

It's going to be a long and bumpy road until all of the confusion is cleared up.
now we have to certify to TS next year.

Mike W

:bonk:
 
M

mshell

Auditors that I have dealt with in the past have always referenced the appropriate clause of the standard and/or section of the procedure for nonconformances and observations. Is this not typical? It seems to me that it would make the reporting process much easier.
 

Douglas E. Purdy

Quite Involved in Discussions
Process Audit Checksheet

We had less trouble when he came to our plant because of a process audit checksheet that I used that I found on the COVE.

dbzman,

Would you mind sharing the checksheet you mentioned in your response?

Thanks,
Doug
 
D

dbzman

I'll try...

This is the first time I've tried to attach a document so here goes......

:biglaugh:
 

Attachments

  • Audit Checklist.doc
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Douglas E. Purdy

Quite Involved in Discussions
Thanks!

dbzman,

Thanks for the checklist! I see how it can be used for a system audit, but how do you plan to use it as a process audit?

Thanks,
Doug
 

bpritts

Involved - Posts
I would hastily agree with the comments from mshell, rcbeyette, and Claes (sp?)
that it is appropriate to ask the auditor specifically "where is the shall"?
Yes, the auditors are human, and one perceived advantage of the element
checklist approach to auditing is that it takes a lot less homework to do the
audit. Now that this crutch has been removed, it will separate the sheep
from the goats in the auditor pool.


I have heard (second and third hand) reports that the IAOB task force
(owners of TS16949 for the non-automotive crowd) are stressing "process"
vs. "procedure" in their training. This may be the source of confusion.

To be charitable to those folks, it is possible
that the message has been garbled in the communication. On the other hand
it wouldn't be the first time that automotive folks have tampered with the
third party registration system.

Brad
 
R

Russ

dbzman said:
This is the first time I've tried to attach a document so here goes......

:biglaugh:
Great checklist! Exactly the direction I have been headed and will definitely help with our audits.
 
M

meo786

Re: ISO 9001:2000 Internal Audit: Someone PLEASE find me the "Shall" on "Process Audi

Dear,

Thank you very much Mr. dbzman for nice guidline for internal audit
 

AndyN

Moved On
Re: ISO 9001:2000 Internal Audit: Someone PLEASE find me the "Shall" on "Process Audi

Dear,

Thank you very much Mr. dbzman for nice guidline for internal audit

May I add as a caution (to this old thread) that the UL checklist which was posted is (IMHO) not suitable or satisfactory for internal quality system audits. The document is created for and used by third party auditors, not internal auditors..............

It may be a useful tool in other ways, however, it has limited use as an internal audit tool.
 
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