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ISO 9001:2000 Process Approach - What is it? Is it 'Real'?

Is the ISO 9001 'switch' to a process approach...

  • The ISO standard now is laid out in a 'Process Approach'

    Votes: 7 16.3%
  • Companies must now adopt a 'process approach' Methodology

    Votes: 8 18.6%
  • Both of the above

    Votes: 28 65.1%

  • Total voters
    43

E Wall

Just Me!
Super Moderator
#31
What is working here...

Originally posted by Alf Gulford
Morning, Eileen,

I think your post may strike a chord with a lot of people who's companies are trying the Lean Manufacturing path.

Any chance you could expand on this a little? Give some specific examples of how you drew parallels and where you were able to make the most effective points?

I've used some of your contributions to my advantage before, and I wouldn't hesitate to steal more of your ideas.

Thanks.

Alf
Well, It's Friday not Monday...but better late than never right? ;)
This is a bit lengthy, but I hope helps:

For the past 6 months I've been trying to prepare everyone here for the transition and began by trying to achieve a 'shift' in the perception of responsibility for the system from "QA function" to "We are all involved". This is 'shift' nothing new, I have had sucess int he last three years by getting the operators to be hands on involved and bringing to me changes needed to forms, SOPs, work instructions, etc...but I did pull the focus of my attention from the operators to the staff. Of course, I hit many roadblocks :frust: everyone busy protecting their own territory, and there were some that just refused to listen at all :bonk:

When they first began talking about Lean, I noticed parallels because as I saw it the added advantage to applying the ISO transition to our system (going beyond the requirements - based on training exercises I participated in during a weeklong transition training seminar held by DNV) we could:
We have an opportunity to re-evaluate our processes based on what 'Goals and Objectives' are outlined as well as taking a truely focused internal customer look at our process interrelationships.
My sell was that while we were identifying the inter-relationships and interchanges of our processes we could identify areas and sources of waste and eliminate them. Which at first...was treated with...The ISO system has nothing to do with our manufacturing processes and that is where we're focusing Lean. {this said by the plants Eng Mgr}.

This showed me I had more educating to do, and along the way I also would have to prove not just to this person but to others on the management team that there were relationships and we could/should use them to our best advantage.

After pushing to be included in the Kaizen event (at first I wasn't even considered) because I felt if I could show my team the relationship, I could sell it to the whole group, I finally was. During the exercise, I would mention where the current and updated standard was associated with the aspects we were reviwing and how they connected. Eyes were opened, I was encouraged to show more and even the Kaizen Sensei (spelling?) during his wrap up made mention of it.

Now, I'm enjoying more cooperation when discussing the transition project (which for us officially begins in Feb). I also (and I mentioned this in other posts) have proposed removing Management Responsibility for ISO from the QA Manager [and remove from the QA Dept entirely], adding it to my own position (which I've been groomed for anyway) and changing the job title to 'Compliance Manager' [recommended by another Cove participant!] and effectively making (all) the process managers (not just mfg) responsible for managing their processes relationship to the ISO standard (with my help and guidance) rather than them pointing to the QA Mgr and sayng "That's his job, I have real work to do". I would continue to head the internal audits (and auditor training) and we work as a team to ensure that no changes would be made to a process without reviewing it's affect on associated processes nor our ISO certification.

At the same time we could continue to use the Lean methods to eliminate the sources of waste (we have an ongoing program that progresses through several levels of achievement), putting the onus on all associated with a process to know the impact of any changes made, and allowing the QA Manager to focus and deal with product quality issues [where he is needed most].

Time will tell how sucessful I am at my goals. I hope in the months to come I'll be able to show more connections. I hope at least some of who read this find it helpful, that is afterall why we are all here:)

Time to get back to updating databases and tackling the other stacks in my boxes.
Best Regards, Eileen

PS: Since all of our businesses and processes are different - I focued my response specifically to not point out 'Detailed' tit-for-tat relationships in hopes that it would be more beneficial to others by doing so.
 
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L

Laura M

#33
Let's do lunch!

E Wall

We need to talk - I had the same conversation with a CEO yesterday that lasted 3 hours. He has an org that sells and makes parts, and I do the ISO. He can't envision that ISO and esp the new version can actually be used to stream line processes. I'm working on it. And he came to see me today - because he was "intrigued" by some of my comments. Well, we'll see what next week brings. I guess he has to stew on things awhile before he gets fully on board - one of those folks with years (and I mean YEARS) of old ways of doing things. And what could a "young quality pin-head type" like me know about all the other aspects of running a biz.

Laura
 

E Wall

Just Me!
Super Moderator
#34
3 weeks too late for Lunch!

Thanks Gals for the boost. It really is a tough battle, especially when we're the junior staff (hard to believe I'm almost 40 and anyone can consider me a junior) and cannot possible know enough to be a meaningful contributor to the organization! NOT !!!! But, yes that is the battle here too. Maybe I should dye my hair grey one day and come in for a meeting so I can make my proposals from the standpoint of the 'Wizened ole QA Broad'? LOL, :biglaugh: what a vision that would be.

I really should have checked the member lists to see who I could visit when I was up north last month. I went from Binghamton to Albany then down to LI...but sure I could have fit Rochester in! Sure would have made my hubby happy if I had fit in a trip to the fingerlakes for some wine.

I'm about 1.5 hrs south of the Atlanta airport, but if anyone is in the area and wants to get together give a hollar!

Eileen
 
J

John Finn

#35
Experience and Youth

As a wizened, white-haired old quality guy, I feel like I have to put my two cents in here. Communications between the generations is always a difficult thing and requires patience and open-mindedness on both sides.

One of the difficulties that those of us on the other side of the hill have is that we remember ourselves when we were younger. When I was a new Quality Engineer, I knew everything there was to know! As I have gotten older, I'm no longer so sure (about business or about life). Experience does temper your opinions. We older guys also have been through many programs, ideas and approaches that were the "final answer", yet new ones keep coming up all the time, and the new ones don't really look much different than the old ones.

That said, those of us who are older have to try harder to listen to the inputs of younger people with potentially new ideas. We also tend to get stuck in ruts, either because it is easier to keep doing things the way we always have, or because we're afraid that we'll become obsolete.

We all need to have a little faith and trust in each other and not believe that the other guy is either obtuse, archaic, or hostile to us. Patience is the most difficult of virtues.
 
L

Laura M

#36
good comments John

Didn't mean to stereotype on age John - sorry. At the same org are a couple of "young bucks" following right in the CEO's path. None of them believe ISO and statistical analysis can help to identify and eliminate waste. They "know" becasue they "know." So I was looking at a mentality more than age. I continue to learn from people with experience. Dr. Deming was pretty old before I starting listening to him! And I have some of the cynical ideas about 6S being a new name for old tricks, and many more examples.

Having beat Eileen to 40 - I guess I'd like to be a wise "old" guy.
Altho never grey - not as long as L'Oreal is still in business.

E Wall - you've obviously been around NY to know about Finger Lakes wine. Binghampton is still about 3 hours away. I have a cuz in Atlanta and we may drive to FLA this year, so who knows!
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Marc

Hunkered Down for the Duration with a Mask on...
Staff member
Admin
#37
Paradigms

Originally posted by Laura M

And he came to see me today - because he was "intrigued" by some of my comments. Well, we'll see what next week brings. I guess he has to stew on things awhile before he gets fully on board - one of those folks with years (and I mean YEARS) of old ways of doing things. And what could a "young quality pin-head type" like me know about all the other aspects of running a biz.
It's often a challange to alter one's paradigm - which is what I perceive this to be about (even if paradigm is an 'old' buzz word). That's the 'stewing period' you speak of. It takes most people a while to reconcile something new which alters their current understand of how something operates or such. And - as we all know - some people take longer to reconcile the old with the new than other people. And, of course, some people can't or simply don't want to and don't.

John's post had a lot of distilled insight (which I like) and covered some important points. Thanks, John.
 
J

John Finn

#38
Paradigms

I agree that changing paradigms is the issue. Coupled with that is our inability at times to really listen in a state of "suspended disbelief" if you will. Often, as someone is speaking to us, particularly with an idea that doesn't ft our existing paradigm, we are already forming arguments in our minds against the idea. If we could just suspend that disbelief for awhile, understand what is being said to us, and say to ourselves "What if this idea is correct and we tried it, what might the results be?" then we would have a better rationale for our decisions.
 
M

Michael T

#39
Re: Paradigms

Originally posted by John Finn
I agree that changing paradigms is the issue. Coupled with that is our inability at times to really listen in a state of "suspended disbelief" if you will. Often, as someone is speaking to us, particularly with an idea that doesn't ft our existing paradigm, we are already forming arguments in our minds against the idea. If we could just suspend that disbelief for awhile, understand what is being said to us, and say to ourselves "What if this idea is correct and we tried it, what might the results be?" then we would have a better rationale for our decisions.
John,

You hit it right on... Peter Senge refers to these as "Mental Models." In The Fifth Discipline he states, "Why are mental models so powerful in affecting what we do? In part, because they affect what we see. Two people with different mental models can observe the same event and describe it differently, because they've looked at different details."

By suspending our mental models (or at least knowing they exist and being attuned to their influence) better communication can result.

I also believe that our "knowledge" base upon our experiences (or Theory of Knowledge as Dr. Deming puts it) tends to filter what we hear or see -- what we percieve, skewing the intent of the message from what the sender originally meant to convey to what is heard by the receiver.

This is one of the biggest stumbling blocks to any attempt to change the culture or paradigm of an organization or an individual.

JMHO and thoughts...

Cheers!!
 
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