ISO 9001:2000 Process Approach - What is it? Is it 'Real'?

[qualityboi]

Process Approach what about a Systems Approach?

So when or where is the systems approach in the gobblety gook? In theory systems transcend processes and bind them together (sounds like the power of the force? ).
We have great process management in our company but poor overall systems because of siloed management and culture. This abscence in corporate governence leads to multiple processes having similar subprocesses with no corporate governence. Ex. would be a stats group for every department, they use different names however, do not share any of the same resoures or methodologies. When a third party comes in and askes if we have SPC we say sure and show him a statistics group. Problem is they don't know that there are 3 other different groups doing the same things without common resources or methods.
I giggle at the IATF process approach form. It just puts the clauses horizontally on top and processes vertically. Would the result of the audit be different if the clauses were vertical and the processes were horizontal? Ok so who has an article about systems approach auditing?

 

[Helmut Jilling]

So when or where is the systems approach in the gobblety gook? In theory systems transcend processes and bind them together (sounds like the power of the force? ).
We have great process management in our company but poor overall systems because of siloed management and culture. This abscence in corporate governence leads to multiple processes having similar subprocesses with no corporate governence.

I giggle at the IATF process approach form. It just puts the clauses horizontally on top and processes vertically.

IMO, What you describe is not "great process management" at all. Because you have significant silos, your company is run in a "departmental" mentality.

A true process approach is indeed a "system" of processes, linked together, and functioning effectively as a whole.

That is the intent of the process approach. To define what they are, to define how they link together, and define how to optimize those processes and links. A key item is 4.1.c in this, but is ofteyn overlooked.

Unfortunately, what you describe is a very common state of affairs. But those same companies don't seek help, because they don't realize how far from the true process approach they really are. A little bit of coaching, and you could be off and running. You can look to football, soccer or basketball as a pretty good metaphor for a process approach.

PS: the AIAG form is actually only intended as a "correlation matrix" to ensure all the clauses are covered somewhere in your processes. It's a way of assuring nothing got left behind. It is nothing more than that.

 

[Helmut Jilling]

.... We used to have a procedure for every clause - this is being replaced by a procedure for each process....

Congratulations. That is a big step forward, and should serve you well going forward.

 

[qualityboi]

Semantics

I was being somewhat semantical, or was I? I know the process approach means you have determined the interrelations of processes and how each process feeds and outputs to one another, I just thought it would be better stated to call the whole "shameal" a Systems approach. Because you can really have great processes within a poorly managed system. That is why some areas shine and others don't. I have always thought (IMHO) that what they refer to as the process approach should in reality be called a systems approach. No biggie though, I get the gist, dare I say it, the "gurus" are referring too. In order for a systems approach to be supported you have to have good corporate governance and top management support to help thread those process together.

 

[Helmut Jilling]

...I just thought it would be better stated to call the whole "shameal" a Systems approach. ....

Interesting, and to your point, in TS they do call the audit of the system processes the "system audit." They just want it to follow the system processes rather than the clauses.

 

[Crusader]

Where's the approach?

JMHO: I don't agree that the ISO 9001 standard is laid out in a "process approach". Not at all.

 

[Helmut Jilling]

JMHO: I don't agree that the ISO 9001 standard is laid out in a "process approach". Not at all.

The standard is laid out in a PDCA model. However, they want the system audits and system management to follow a process approach, rather than the clauses. But, this evolved more after the standard was issued. Thus, the standard makes little mention of it, but subsequent documents and clarifications emphasize it.

 

[Crusader]

never mind...

The standard is laid out in a PDCA model.

I've never had any training on PDCA. Do not have any books or info either. My opinion is no good!

 

[Helmut Jilling]

I've never had any training on PDCA. Do not have any books or info either. My opinion is no good!

Well, whether you were trained in PDCA or not, is not so important. The ISO 9001 Standard is laid out in that logical, linear model already. You can just take the standard as it is and work with it.

But, just to explain a bit. The intent of the Plan - Do - Check (or Study) - Act is straightforward. It is essentially a continual improvement circle or spiral where, if you do it well, each lap around is intended to raise the bar (hence the continual improvement). I guess that means if you don't do it well, you just go in circles.

Plan - Plan an activity, define the expected outcomes, determine the criteria and objectives whereby you will know if it was effective, and determine how you will measure or monitor whether those were met. Then, plan the steps of the activity, the inputs and outputs, the interactions, responsibilities and resources needed.

Do - Execute the plan you described in the Plan step above.

Check (or Study) - Check, (evaluate, review, study, analyze, discuss) the results and data you said you were going monitor for this activity.

Act - Based on the conclusions you reached in the Check/Study step, define course corrections, adjustments, and do another lap around the circle.

If you did the Study and Act steps well, the next lap will have improved results. With each lap, the process continues to become refined, and the results continue to improve. Hence, the "Continual Improvement" everyone likes to talk about, but many don't actually achieve.

This is the secret to why Toyota and Honda have improved so much since the 1970's. They came from nothing, while the leaders of that time were fat, dumb and happy, and felt they didn't need a strategy to improve.

A company that does this well cannot fail to improve!

 

[vanputten]

5,6,7,8

In ISO 9001:

Section 5 is primarily Act related stuff. (Management Responsibility)

Section 6 is primarily Planning related stuff. (Resource Management)

Section 7 is primarily Do related stuff. (Product Realization)

Section 8 is primarily Check related stuff. (Measurement, Analysis and Improvement)

Section 4 is general stuff.

We can look at how the standard is generally laid out to support the PDCA model. Within each of those sections, we can all easily find more PDCA stuff. We can look within each section to find PDC and A related requirements.

But in general, the organization of ISO 9001 is to match the PDCA model. This diagram can be found in 0.2 Process Approach.

Regards,

Dirk