ISO 9001:2000 transition - Document and Process Discussion

[SteelMaiden]

Re: ISO 9002:1994 to ISO 9001:2000 conversion (transition)

Exactly. A procedure is a process. A documented procedure is a process that's documented.

A square is a rectangle?

A procedure could also be a part of a process or a subprocess.

 

[Jim Wynne]

Re: ISO 9002:1994 to ISO 9001:2000 conversion (transition)

A square is a rectangle?

Yes, a square is a type of rectangle.

A procedure could also be a part of a process or a subprocess.

Yes again. Or a process could be a part of a procedure. It doesn't make any difference. They are actions that follow the I-P-O cycle--Input-Process-Output. The input might be from another process (procedure), and the output might feed another one, or might be a final product.

 

[HSSE Auditor]

Re: ISO 9002:1994 to ISO 9001:2000 conversion (transition)

Exactly. A procedure is a process. A documented procedure is a process that's documented.

I agree, a procedure should describe a process. Document control is a process, as is internal audits and corrective and preventative action.

 

[Gary E MacLean]

Re: ISO 9002:1994 to ISO 9001:2000 conversion (transition)

... have a look at our host's signature .....

whast is a "host's signature?"

...have a search around the Cove as there must be thousands of posts and hundreds of threads that deal with your question / opinion and you may find the answer / sides of the argument there.

Come on Paul, think about it Do you think searching for hours through piles of old posts, then finding an answer would be anywhere near as stimulating as bantering back and forth, real time, with half a dozen or so pros on some mundane subject like is a document a procedure or a process? I think not. It's great all the old posts are still here and available but there is something about real time, in your face, discussion

Great - look forward to seeing your ideas and questions on the Cove!

Thanks Paul. I've had fun during my very brief membership, I am having a grand time right now, and I expect to continue to enjoy and learn from the cove, the covers - both new and old, and from re-hashing old subjects.

What do you think - should I start a thread on why ISO did not include "...shall establish and maintain a documented procedure..." in the Management Review element of 9K94? Don't worry, I won't do it.

Good luck - thanks for the thought provoking jabs.

 

[AndyN]

Re: ISO 9002:1994 to ISO 9001:2000 conversion (transition)

Jim:
The nature of the 'Big 6' is that they are cross organization and we don't do a good job of them (not institutional). So, they have to be written down in a documented form, to allow consistency etc. I don't believe that they should be measured, so I'm sure that the TC folks didn't call them processes - who in business gives a hoot about any metric associated with audits, documents, records etc?? Sure you can apply a measurement but it's meaningless.

I posed a number of questions about what are inputs etc., but there's been no reply. I still fail to see what are inputs and outputs of any records 'process'..............

 

[Jim Wynne]

Re: ISO 9002:1994 to ISO 9001:2000 conversion (transition)

Jim:
...who in business gives a hoot about any metric associated with audits, documents, records etc?? Sure you can apply a measurement but it's meaningless.

Who gives a hoot about metrics associated with audits??? Anyone who cares about the effectiveness of the system. Other than that, no one, I guess.

I posed a number of questions about what are inputs etc., but there's been no reply. I still fail to see what are inputs and outputs of any records 'process'..............

1. A need for record-keeping is identified
2. The required content of the record is identified
3. A form for capturing the required content is designed
4. The record is stored/

#1 and #2 are inputs, #3 is part of the processing, and #4 (the stored record) is output.

 

[HSSE Auditor]

Re: ISO 9002:1994 to ISO 9001:2000 conversion (transition)

Jim:
The nature of the 'Big 6' is that they are cross organization and we don't do a good job of them (not institutional). So, they have to be written down in a documented form, to allow consistency etc. I don't believe that they should be measured, so I'm sure that the TC folks didn't call them processes - who in business gives a hoot about any metric associated with audits, documents, records etc??

They did call them processes Andy. Not sure why you are so defensive about this.

This is the definition of "procedure" from Annex A of "ISO 9000 Introduction and Support Package: Guidance on the Documentation Requirements of ISO 9001:2000". This is the document that Sid linked.

Procedure - specified way to carry out an activity or a process (Note: Procedures can be documented or not)

 

[Stijloor]

Re: ISO 9002:1994 to ISO 9001:2000 conversion (transition)

whast is a "host's signature?"

Come on Paul, think about it Do you think searching for hours through piles of old posts, then finding an answer would be anywhere near as stimulating as bantering back and forth, real time, with half a dozen or so pros on some mundane subject like is a document a procedure or a process? I think not. It's great all the old posts are still here and available but there is something about real time, in your face, discussion

Thanks Paul. I've had fun during my very brief membership, I am having a grand time right now, and I expect to continue to enjoy and learn from the cove, the covers - both new and old, and from re-hashing old subjects.

What do you think - should I start a thread on why ISO did not include "...shall establish and maintain a documented procedure..." in the Management Review element of 9K94? Don't worry, I won't do it.

Good luck - thanks for the thought provoking jabs.

Hello Gary,

I like your response. Quote: I expect to continue to enjoy and learn from the cove, the covers - both new and old, and from re-hashing old subjects.

Keep in mind: the Romans used to say repetitia mater studiorum est, "repetition is the mother of study."

So, let's "rehash" in the spirit of learning and continual (skills and knowledge) improvement.

Like it!!

Stijloor.

 

[Logic]

Re: ISO 9002:1994 to ISO 9001:2000 conversion (transition)

One benefit of re-hashing is that the current thinking, rather than thinking that may now be out of date, will be available to us new Covers.

 

[Stijloor]

Re: ISO 9002:1994 to ISO 9001:2000 conversion (transition)

One benefit of re-hashing is that the current thinking, rather than thinking that may now be out of date, will be available to us new Covers.

Hello Logic!

I absolutely agree! You honor your Cove name. LOGIC!

Stijloor.