ISO 9001:2008 7.6 (traceable to international or national measurement standards)?

[quality is life]

Dear jane
I dont understand you clearly.
I dont claim that I am so much experienced but for your kind information thats my experience as a lead auditor, but I have worked as an auditor for 3 years and a consultant for 8 years and specificaly in automotive industry I have the same years of experience in process auditing (based on ISO TS 16949).
I just wanted to help my friend who had the question as I really appreciate small factories hard work in the way of certification and quality improvement.
If there is any problem with the answers given please highlight and clarify because such forums are for sharing information not critisising unrelated issues.
I have just mentioned my "little" experience in this field as lead auditor to answer my friend's question about what auditors are searching for regarding item 7.6 of the standard.

 

[JaneB]

I took exception to the specific remark of yours which I quoted. Which said that implementing without using a consultant is 'more efficient'. Did I misunderstand your meaning?

Given that your post included a strong opinion about not using consultants, I don't think it's an unrelated issue.

I don't and didn't in any way denigrate your desire to help.

 

[AndyN]

ISo auditors follow a CAPDo cycle - you follow PDCA when implementing the system it means they normally start from the checking points and steps and in this way measuring and monitoring equipments play a major role.

This is not accurate in my experience! You are basing you comment on your ISO/TS 16949 training, which introduced auditors to this 'CAPDo' concept. Those 'ISO' auditors who have not had exposure to such training (the vast majority) will not necessarily follow such a technique. Indeed, emphasis has been on following the Process Approach (which, incidentally, 'CAPDo' isn't).

 

[AndyN]

thats my experience as a lead auditor, but I have worked as an auditor for 3 years

........experience in this field as lead auditor

Quality is Life....perhaps you could help us all understand your advise here, since many people call their qualifications the same thing 'lead auditor' (for example) but it can mean very different things.

Are you a Lead auditor for a Certification Body (as some of our fellow Covers are) or do you function as a Lead Auditor, leading an internal audit team, or similar.....

Indeed, have you stopped by our 'Introductions' thread and posted any details about yourself......

 

[quality is life]

Dear Jane
You have been misunderstood which is also my fault in not expressing in right words. As a consultant I do think consultants can help the companies alot but also I understand the limitations of small businesses (especially financial problems) and appreciate their efforts.

Dear Andy
I am a certified lead auditor having an IRCA code trained in Italian IMQ (member of CISQ).
I just told about myself as JaneB blaimed my little experience, that was a misunderstanding which I appologize for.

Also you surely know that process approach is based on Deming PDCA cycle, so auditors following the CAPDo (Check, Act, Plan, Do) are indeed following the process approach but as the goal of auditing is to determine the conformity of the designated QMS with the standard, starting from Check step is the most efficient way - not in my personal opinion but most of CB's I know through attending their audit process as a consultant.

Any ways my dear friends if you like to discuss technical points regarding what I have said I will be happy to hear and learn more, but please stop claiming each others personal background.

Thank you

 

[AndyN]

as the goal of auditing is to determine the conformity of the designated QMS with the standard, starting from Check step is the most efficient way - not in my personal opinion but most of CB's I know through attending their audit process as a consultant.

Since you'd like to continue the technical discussions, only one goal of doing audits is to determine the compliance to the standard! There are (many) others........I'm very surprised as both a certified lead auditor and a consultant that you'd not mention these other objectives. Unless I misunderstand your phraseology 'the goal of auditing.....'

BTW - one of the reasons people post details of their background and experience here - for newcomers such as you - is that it's one way we can establish a level of 'competency' with the people we're responding to! It's sincerely not a case of 'my experience is better than yours' - it's there to distinguish the posters credibility amongst the 1,000's of people who post their comments. After all, some would say that experiencing an audit as a Lead Auditor is quite different from watching a Lead Auditor do an audit.......

That way when someone like the OP asks a question, they will be able to get an understanding of the validity of the answers they get.

BTW - it's not clear to me (still) from what you've posted...are you an IRCA Lead Auditor? I'm not sure what you mean by an 'IRCA Code'. Do you audit for CB's? That would help us to establish your credentials and get to know you and your points of view much better, you understand........

 

[JaneB]

As a consultant I do think consultants can help the companies alot but also I understand the limitations of small businesses (especially financial problems) and appreciate their efforts.

Glad to hear it. As a consultant, I run a small business myself, and of course I understand both the strengths and the constraints of small business. One of the strengths of a consultant is (or should be) having experience of many different systems and across a whole range of different organisations, of different sizes and types.

Also you surely know that process approach is based on Deming PDCA cycle, so auditors following the CAPDo (Check, Act, Plan, Do) are indeed following the process approach but as the goal of auditing is to determine the conformity of the designated QMS with the standard, starting from Check step is the most efficient way - not in my personal opinion but most of CB's I know through attending their audit process as a consultant.

I disagree with almost everything you say here. Where to start?

As Andy points out, determining conformity is only one purpose of auditing. I'm not going to argue about automtive (outside my sphere) but I've never yet observed or talked with an auditor I admired who referred to it as 'Check Act Plan Do', but rather called it Plan Do Check/Study Act. Nor started with Check...

if you like to discuss technical points regarding what I have said I will be happy to hear and learn more, but please stop claiming each others personal background.

I don't understand what you mean about 'please stop claiming each others personal background' - this just doesn't make sense. No one's 'personal' background is being claimed. But exploring professional experience and knowledge - a different matter. Mine is publicly available, posted on my company website and available via the Cove links. (I mention this only in the context of this discussion, as my participation in the Cove is not based on advertising or wanting to drum up business.)

As Andy has pointed out, there's a reason for exploring background and experience. It's not a matter of being rude about it, or casting aspersions, but to help the person who asked a question (and others) make some kind of informed decision about the competency and experience of the poster, and thus some kind context about how useful, relevant and accurate the information might be.

I can see that you're new to the Cove - please don't take any of this personally. Robust and frank debate is a hallmark of discussions here. If people make statements, or offer opinions, then it's expected that they'll be willing to explain them, if necessary, and the basis for them, and if relevant, the data or experience that they are based on.

These are normal, professional expectations, not least in the world of the quality professional. So don't see it as in any way an attack on you - it isn't. (indeed, the host is very strong on courtesy and helpfulness). You could well find it helpful and enlightening to scan through various other threads, to understand better, and satisfy yourself of the truth of this.

 

[quality is life]

Dear Andy
I do audit for CBs.
For your kind information when you are a member of audit team you dont only watch the lead audirtor do the audit but you audit the section, department and the process that the lead auditor specifies.
The observer auditors watch the audit, you are an observor auditor for like 10 man/days (based on internal regulations of the CB) after the training course and passsing the exam and then you become an auditor.
The lead auditor is the supervisor of the team and the one who is responsible for conducting the opening and closing meetings also the final report based on audit team observations.
IRCA is a British hence internationally accepted organization who certifies ISO auditors and gives hem and international code accepted by the CBs worldwide. It stands for International register of certified Auditors.
for more informaton please visit IRCA.
Regards
Armond

 

[quality is life]

Dear Andy
i forgot to mention that yes you are right, finding improvement opportunities, positive points of strength and many other goals are among the goals of each audit but when you talk about certifications, you basically discuss the conformity with the standard.
Regards

 

[AndyN]

Dear Andy
I do audit for CBs.
For your kind information when you are a member of audit team you dont only watch the lead audirtor do the audit but you audit the section, department and the process that the lead auditor specifies.
The observer auditors watch the audit, you are an observor auditor for like 10 man/days (based on internal regulations of the CB) after the training course and passsing the exam and then you become an auditor.
The lead auditor is the supervisor of the team and the one who is responsible for conducting the opening and closing meetings also the final report based on audit team observations.
IRCA is a British hence internationally accepted organization who certifies ISO auditors and gives hem and international code accepted by the CBs worldwide. It stands for International register of certified Auditors.
for more informaton please visit IRCA.
Regards
Armond

Armond - all this is good stuff, except I already knew all this, having been:-

a CB auditor (IRCA and RAB) since the 1990's..........(one of the reasons for establishing other posters competencies), and;
a trainer of more than 15 years, for the company who wrote the first Lead Auditor course - Excel Partnership, I've also taught 1,000's of people in Lead and Internal auditor courses for ISO 9000, QS-9000, ISO/TS 16949, ISO/IEC 17024, ISO/IEC 17025 as well as written and delivered a combined ISO 9000/14000/OHSAS 18000 auditor course........and too many others to mention!

I guess the problem is that there's no-where at the Cove where you can 'look up' someone's past experience/qualifications/competencies etc. before engaging with them....

Marc, might that be a facility that you could add here?