ISO 9001:2008 for Marketing and Sales Department Only.

A

ABUHASHIM

HELLO ALL,

I'm working on creating a system of ISO9001:2008, the scope shall be done only to Marketing & Sales Department of our Company.
the Department of M&S is doing planning & executing sales activities for many types of different products.
other departments which are out of the scope are Procuremnts, Production, Stores, HR & Training & Financial Department.
The starting inputs are the reports received from the production department & the requirements from the customers. the final process out put, is the contracting and follow up for final receiving of customers to company products.

Our company after finishing of creating & implementing the system, thinks to go directly for certification.

I would like to know your suggestions regarding what should be excluded and what shouldn't be excluded.:thanks:
 

Stijloor

Leader
Super Moderator
Re: ISO 9001:2008 for Marketing & Sales Department

HELLO ALL,

I'm working on creating a system of ISO9001:2008, the scope shall be done only to Marketing & Sales Department of our Company.
the Department of M&S is doing planning & executing sales activities for many types of different products.
other departments which are out of the scope are Procuremnts, Production, Stores, HR & Training & Financial Department.
The starting inputs are the reports received from the production department & the requirements from the customers. the final process out put, is the contracting and follow up for final receiving of customers to company products.

Our company after finishing of creating & implementing the system, thinks to go directly for certification.

I would like to know your suggestions regarding what should be excluded and what shouldn't be excluded.:thanks:

Welcome to The Cove Forums! :agree1::agree1:

A quick question: Why would your organization limit the scope of certification to just Marketing and Sales? Production, for example, has a major impact on customer satisfaction, why would you exclude them?

I have trouble envisioning a Quality Management System with such a very limited scope... Please fill us in.

By the way, I have created a new thread for you to get more responses from Fellow Covers.

Stijloor.
 
A

ABUHASHIM

Re: ISO 9001:2008 for Marketing & Sales Department

Welcome to The Cove Forums! :agree1::agree1:

A quick question: Why would your organization limit the scope of certification to just Marketing and Sales? Production, for example, has a major impact on customer satisfaction, why would you exclude them?

I have trouble envisioning a Quality Management System with such a very limited scope... Please fill us in.

By the way, I have created a new thread for you to get more responses from Fellow Covers.

Stijloor.
Thanks for your reply.
I hundred percent agree with you; but We are a big company functioning in many different areas, our top management think that, it is better to take each department on each case.
Although, I dis agree with their view, I refer to one of the certification bodies and they advised me that it can be applicable and can be certified to ISO9001.
They advised me, that we should identify competencies and prepare a training plan, although M&S department is not involving in recruitment process.
 

Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Leader
Admin
Re: ISO 9001:2008 for Marketing & Sales Department

Although, I dis agree with their view, I refer to one of the certification bodies and theyadvised me that it can be applicable and can be certified to ISO9001.
As ISO 9001 becomes a global phenomenon, from the early days in the UK, to Europe to North and South America to Asia and now slowly (but surely) reaching Africa, we seem not able to learn from the mistakes others have made. We seem destined to keep repeating the same stupid errors, over and over.

Certainly, if you ask enough CB's, you will find one that will encourage you to attain certification of a single department. After all, you are a revenue opportunity for them.

I work for a very large, international CB, with over 70,000 management system certificates issued around the World, and would tell you: It does not make any sense whatsoever for an individual department of an organization to attain certification to ISO 9001. You will create artificial controls and procedures, attain certification, but the organization will see no real benefit.
And, in the unlikely event that your external clients are knowledgeable enough, certification of an individual department might even be detrimental to your organization, because an observant customer, when faced with your certificate would ask: why would this organization certify a separate department only?

Paraphrasing NIKE: JUST DON'T DO IT!
 

Stijloor

Leader
Super Moderator
Sidney,

Well stated! :applause:

I am afraid that the main purpose of this approach is to get the "paper" on the wall or use it for questionable advertising purposes.

Now, having said this, the OP's Top Management may still insist on this approach and s/he needs help.

Stijloor.
 
J

JaneB

Our company after finishing of creating & implementing the system, thinks to go directly for certification.

I would like to know your suggestions regarding what should be excluded and what shouldn't be excluded.:thanks:

I don't fully understand this question - could you please clarify your meaning? 'Excluded' from what? From the scope of your system? Your certification? Something else?? Because, you see, as you're already finding "although M&S department is not involving in recruitment process" you still must meet all the requirements for competency - indeed, you must meet all requirements throughout! You only get to exclude things from scope in section 7 and only where appropriate. There's an excllent document from ISO's technical committee called Guidance on ISO 9001 Sub-clause 1.2 'Application' which you should read for guidance on scope exclusions (plus anything else on the page - all useful).

:topic:

I'm calling this offtopic, as the OP isn't actually asking 'should we do this'? at all and may not have a say in that decision.

I will though disagree with Sidney and Stijloor here about there never being value in restricting certification to a single department or area of a company. In my experience, it not only can be done but also it isn't always a bad idea in & of itself.

Some advantages include: being able to start with a restricted area, learn what's involved without trying to 'eat the whole elephant at once', gaining traction, getting some 'runs on the board', etc, and then migrating that knowledge out to widen it - kind of like doing a pilot project. What's the problem? Also, at times the whole organisation doesn't want/need certification, whereas one specific section/department/business area/contractual arrangement/line of products does.

Some disadvantages include: why do it? because if doing it under the mistaken belief that you can drop out large sections of the Standard, instead you'll find that, as it's a quality management system, you have to apply the requirements to most/many areas of the company anyway (so the reasoning goes, why not do it all). Also, how does the organisation as a whole benefit, etc.

I do agree it does sound a little odd on the face of it and it isn't normal to do it on a departmental basis. But I'd prefer to have more info & adequate before advising 'Just don't do it!' or drawing the following conclusion:

I am afraid that the main purpose of this approach is to get the "paper" on the wall or use it for questionable advertising purposes.

For example, it's possible that the M&S area is the one where the bosses see the greatest risks, the most need and the most potential gain. We don't know (not enough info).

Given your position with major certifiers, you may of course both have plenty of experience of the problems you both cite happening. My experience has been different. Yes, of course the organisation must not use certification of one department to claim/pretend/infer that the whole company is and/or mislead people. But that's no different for anyone.
 

Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Leader
Admin
What's the problem?
The basic problem is that ISO 9001 implementation makes sense, when the customer(s) we focus on are the external, paying customers. When an organization attempts to implement ISO 9001 using "internal customers and suppliers", the implementation drives unsustainable processes and procedures. Who is the customer of a sales and marketing department? How would the mandatory procedures for control of non-conforming products read like for a sales and marketing department? What kind of "internal customer" satisfaction methodology would make sense for a sales and marketing department?

Yes, based on my experience and judgement, a compartmentalized, departmental implementation of ISO 9001 has always led to unsustainable and sub-optimizing processes.

Maybe you can share a successful case that you are familiar with.
 
J

JaneB

Interesting question to debate & I'd like to - but I'm going to ask that we break it out into a separate topic so as not to derail the OP's question.
 
I agree, Jane. We are discussing two topics in the same thread here, and I have copied some of the contents to a new one: Can (and should) you do 9001 in a single department/area? and kept everything in place here in order not do disrupt anything.

So let's keep discussing the op:s question in this thread:

ABUHASHIM said:
I'm working on creating a system of ISO9001:2008, the scope shall be done only to Marketing & Sales Department of our Company.
the Department of M&S is doing planning & executing sales activities for many types of different products.
other departments which are out of the scope are Procuremnts, Production, Stores, HR & Training & Financial Department.
The starting inputs are the reports received from the production department & the requirements from the customers. the final process out put, is the contracting and follow up for final receiving of customers to company products.

Our company after finishing of creating & implementing the system, thinks to go directly for certification.

I would like to know your suggestions regarding what should be excluded and what shouldn't be excluded

/Claes
 
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