ISO 9001:2008 for Marketing and Sales Department Only.

[John Broomfield]

HELLO ALL,

I'm working on creating a system of ISO9001:2008, the scope shall be done only to Marketing & Sales Department of our Company.
the Department of M&S is doing planning & executing sales activities for many types of different products.
other departments which are out of the scope are Procuremnts, Production, Stores, HR & Training & Financial Department.
The starting inputs are the reports received from the production department & the requirements from the customers. the final process out put, is the contracting and follow up for final receiving of customers to company products.

Our company after finishing of creating & implementing the system, thinks to go directly for certification.

I would like to know your suggestions regarding what should be excluded and what shouldn't be excluded.

To answer your question in developing the system that runs the markeing department so it conforms to ISO 9001:2008:

1. Define their customers (external and internal)
2. Specify acceptance criteria for their products (goods and services)
3. Define the Mission and document (or adopt) the Quality Policy
4. Specify and document the departmental objectives
5. Have the leader explain the system development project and how they can make it succeed
5. Determine their core process (end to end)
6. Determine the sequence and interaction of key processes in the core process
7. Determine the key processes that support the core process (can be shared by all departments)
8. Name the process owners (subject matter experts)
9. Analyze and document the key processes to fulfill objectives
10. Review procedures of the as-is processes for accuracy
11. Incorportate comments, approve and issue these procedures
12. Design and document any new processes as required to conform to the standard (such as internal audit)
13. Train process teams in new processes
14. Develop and mini-manual to describe the organization's subsystem (at this time you can see what parts of clause 7 to exclude)
15. Have the leader launch the system to thank everyone and stress the importance and benefits of everyone using and improving their management system
16. Ensure the users, supervisors and managers do their process monitoring and corrections
17. Monitor customer perceptions of how well the department meets their requirements.
18. Put your freshly trained internal audit team to work
19. Drive your process for investing in improvement with corrective actions too.
20. Select an accredited registrar that will enhance the reputation of the department (and the organization's) - synthesize your certifications into one to avoid paying a fortune.

Remember that departmental management often is the enemy of process management. Departments tend to focus on keeping the boss happy whereas processes are usually run to keep the customer happy.

Taking the departmental approach to developing your organization's management system is not recommended. Management may not realize what they are doing.

 

[AndyN]

Re: ISO 9001:2008 for Marketing & Sales Department

Thanks for your reply.
I hundred percent agree with you; but We are a big company functioning in many different areas, our top management think that, it is better to take each department on each case.
Although, I dis agree with their view, I refer to one of the certification bodies and they advised me that it can be applicable and can be certified to ISO9001.
They advised me, that we should identify competencies and prepare a training plan, although M&S department is not involving in recruitment process.

I believe that what is missing here is the understanding by top management of what ISO 9001 is and its application to a business........if they had some kind of education on the subject, they would be less likely to be asking for this approach! Then they would see also, that the CB is telling them porky pies.....!

 

[RoxaneB]

*Puts on her flack jacket and military helmet*

For what it's worth, my organization's Sales and Marketing Department will be implementing a Quality Management System and going for registration to ISO 9001...at our North American Corporate Office (where I am rumoured to have a desk, but am never there to see it).

They will have their own separate registration.

Our many production sites across North America have their own individual ISO 9001 certificates.

The S&M Department (hmm...they need a new acronym ) is going for their own registration due to pressure put on them from the sites. Many of the external audits at the site level are resulting in comments that the sites are not responsible for attaining customer requirements and are "forbidden" from directly interracting with the customer. This has resulted in many sites being unable to demonstrate how customer requirements are obtained, satisfaction determined, and so on.

Sales has realized that they are now getting more requests from various sites for both internal and external audits (something I have warned them about for years!) and attaining their own ISO 9001 certificate is their solution to this dilemma.

Not sure if this is the same situation as the Original Poster, but I thought I'd share the reasoning behind my own organization's approach.

 

[JaneB]

I'd like to focus on what I actually said:

I will though disagree with Sidney and Stijloor here about there never being value in restricting certification to a single department or area of a company. In my experience, it not only can be done but also it isn't always a bad idea in & of itself.

I did not argue in favour of doing it in the particular case noted here by the OP. Indeed, I said:

I do agree it does sound a little odd on the face of it and it isn't normal to do it on a departmental basis. But I'd prefer to have more info & adequate before advising 'Just don't do it!' or drawing the following conclusion (the main purpose of this approach is to get the "paper" on the wall or use it for questionable advertising purposes)

Pulling a single question (What's the problem?) out of its context:

Some advantages include: being able to start with a restricted area, learn what's involved without trying to 'eat the whole elephant at once', gaining traction, getting some 'runs on the board', etc, and then migrating that knowledge out to widen it - kind of like doing a pilot project. What's the problem?

and then arguing against that as though I were strongly supporting the Sales & Marketing idea only is drawing a rather long bow.

For examples of where it can work, see this thread.

 

[Miner]

They will have their own separate registration.

Our many production sites across North America have their own individual ISO 9001 certificates.

Have you ever considered a blanket certification for all sites? The individual certs are a wise precaution when first getting certified, but once your QMS is mature and the risk of a major non conformance is low, it makes a lot of sense to go to a blanket certification. It resolves the confusion created by a separate S&M site, or a separate design center for that matter.

 

[AndyN]

Roxanne - I'm thinking that your folks were certified before the 2000 version. If so, that would be a reason why the Marketing and Sales people are 'late to the party'. A fragmented approach to certification was often the case in the years between the 87 and 94 versions.

By rights, the CB shouldn't have allowed it, perhaps, this far after the 2000 release.......

 

[ABUHASHIM]

Dear All,

I've attached a drawing proposal, to take the case practically.

refering to JaneB comments, agree that exclusion should be to clause 7; and the main issue will be clause 6, which is not applicable to M&S department; but I think the standard has mentioned " to identify competencies"; and M&S can Identify competencies for its existing employees, and also can prepare and approve a training plan. Agree that, training Plan execution shall be the job which is performed by HR; but this training plan prepared by M&S, can be an inputs of the training requirements.

 

[RoxaneB]

Roxanne - I'm thinking that your folks were certified before the 2000 version. If so, that would be a reason why the Marketing and Sales people are 'late to the party'. A fragmented approach to certification was often the case in the years between the 87 and 94 versions.

By rights, the CB shouldn't have allowed it, perhaps, this far after the 2000 release.......

Have you ever considered a blanket certification for all sites? The individual certs are a wise precaution when first getting certified, but once your QMS is mature and the risk of a major non conformance is low, it makes a lot of sense to go to a blanket certification. It resolves the confusion created by a separate S&M site, or a separate design center for that matter.

I've quoted you both as I believe my response ties into both of your responses...

We have 18 production sites across North America. We have grown through mergers and acquisitions over the past years. To give you an idea, when I joined the North American business unit in 2001, there were 2 sites in North America. To add 16 more sites in such a short time span, not to mention downstream fabrication shops and upstream recycling yards that are in the high double-digits, well, we still experience some growing pains.

The idea of a blanket certificate has been raised...numerous times...by me. (I think that's why they stopped inviting me to the Quality meetings ) However, with mergers and acquistions comes sites with certificates from different registrars and the decision was made that there would be no financial benefit to cancelling certificates with the intent to go under one.

...and, yes, I did also point out that they would not need to cancel a certificate, simply wait until the re-registration process came due...

Now, one of the major changes that we have seen from just an explosive growth is the centralization of some processes. The S&M Department is one of them. There is one Sales Department with two locations (American customers deal through Tampa, Canadian customers deal through Whitby...not sure where foreign customers call).

Up until the time I left my site, the Registrars from all other sites were happy to accept my internal audit report of Sales and our Registrars external audit report of Sales. This demonstrated how customer requirements were communicated to the sites, satisfaction results, complaints, new products and so on.

My site was registered to ISO prior to 2000. Other sites are slowly coming up to speed. Some of our newer acquisitions are technically pre-2000, but this is their first time dealing with an off-site Sales group.

Due to my involvement in the Quality group, I gave Sales the heads-up of what was happening at the sites. I also gave Quality the heads-up regarding the issue of Sales. I strongly urged these two groups (both based at our corporate location) to work together and with the sites to come up with a solid, cohesive plan.

...and then I left to join Corporate Procurement.

The idea of registering the S&M Department only was the decision made. Out of my hands now...not my problem...I'm detaching from it. No point in letting it eat me up.

It probably hasn't helped that since I left my site, my boss and the person who took over for me have not audited Sales...not even the Canadian branch just down the road. So, for the sites who are doing internal/external audits this past 1.5 years, there have been no records to help the gauge anything on the customer front.

Registrars are also seemingly becoming more frustrated with only one site's report and are beginning to knock on Sales' door more often (a change of pace, for sure, as usually it's Sales that comes knocking!!!).

So, getting back to the Original Poster, I'm not quite certain of his organizational set-up, but I can see one reason why the Sales and Marketing group would have their own registration. Not saying I like it...but I get it.

 

[Sidney Vianna]

A better solution?

Roxanne, from what you describe, the decision for the S&M group to be certified has been made. In my professional judgement, even though it is possible for them to attain ISO 9001 certification, I don't think it is the best solution.

I do understand the need for that group to demonstrate control over their processes, as they support the whole corporation. From the site's perspective, the processes performed by your S&M group have been outsourced. The ISO guidance document on outsourced processes state

2.3 Control of outsourced processes

2.3.1)The acquisition of outsourced processes will normally be subject to the capability of achieving the necessary control through the application of requirements of both ISO 9001:2008 clause 7.4 (Purchasing) and clause 4.1 (General Requirements)

As mentioned in the Note, in some situations, the organization might not “purchase” the outsourced process in the traditional sense; it might, for example, receive the service from a corporate head office or from another division within a group of organizations, without any monetary transaction taking place (see 2.1 above). Under these circumstances, however, ISO 9001:2008 Clauses 7.4 and 4.1 are still applicable.

I do believe, however, that, instead of going for certification, a much better solution would be for an independent, competent assessment of the group against the applicable requirements of ISO 9001. There is a big difference between such assessments and certification.

Certification will require some artificial controls in place. The assessment solution is much more flexible and will create less constraints to the organization, adding more value, in my opinion, to all stakeholders: The S&M group, the sites, the customers, etc...

Such assessments can be done on a periodic basis, e.g., annual and the results of such assessment can be used to demonstrate "control over such outsourced processes", from the sites' perspective.

Just a suggestion for you.

 

[khaledelfeki]

Hello all,
I'm new to this forum. Just registered few minutes ago. I'm working in an insurance company which used to have a sales depertment only while now preparing to have a marketing depertment along with the sales. My company is also an iso certified company but we're are forming a new company now which will include this marketing department. I already have the processes and procedures of iso for sales but I don't have the iso processes and procedures of marketing.
I tried to find out in many websites but could not find till now.
I'm wondering if any one here can help me where to find it?

Thank you very much in advance for your help.

Regards,