ISO 9001:2008 Management Representative and other Management Staff

T

toto2010

#1
Dear Everyone,

I have several questions regarding the ISO 9001: 2008 on change of management representative.

1) I heard that change of management representative has to be documented. Not sure whether this is mandatory and which clause states this.

2) For my company, we are still developing the ISO system. Does the appointment of MR has to be documented? Again, if this has to be done, which ISO clause states that?

3) Is this the function of HR department or quality department to document the appointment of MR?

Thank you very much.

Regards,
Toto2010
 
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#2
Re: ISO 9001: 2008 Management Representative and other Managment Staff

Dear Everyone,

I have several questions regarding the ISO 9001: 2008 on change of management representative.

1) I heard that change of management representative has to be documented. Not sure whether this is mandatory and which clause states this.

2) For my company, we are still developing the ISO system. Does the appointment of MR has to be documented? Again, if this has to be done, which ISO clause states that?

3) Is this the function of HR department or quality department to document the appointment of MR?

Thank you very much.

Regards,
Toto2010
This is a great example of the type of questions which arise, when the answer is in a copy of the standard. Presumably, what you heard wasn't from someone who has read it, which is always a bit dangerous. If you are still in process of implementation, do you have a copy of ISO 9001:2008? If so, might I suggest that your answer is in there.
 
#3
Re: ISO 9001: 2008 Management Representative and other Managment Staff

Some baggage left over from earlier times in ISO 9001 is the misconception that everything needs to be documented. This is one of those things that there is no specific requirement to document it.

That said, depending on how you have set up your quality management system, you may want to document it, but it is up to you.

If you use an organization chart to help put some structure to 5.5.1 where it says that you need to define the responsibilities and authorities in your organization, you may want to document it there. Please note that define does not necessarily equal document.

You may have a contractual requirement to notify your certification body when you change your management representative.
 
T

toto2010

#4
Re: ISO 9001: 2008 Management Representative and other Managment Staff

This is a great example of the type of questions which arise, when the answer is in a copy of the standard. Presumably, what you heard wasn't from someone who has read it, which is always a bit dangerous. If you are still in process of implementation, do you have a copy of ISO 9001:2008? If so, might I suggest that your answer is in there.
Hi Andy,

I do have a copy and I have read through clause 1 to 8. I couldn't find the answer. Really appreciate if you can enlighten me directly according to my questions.

Thank you very much.

Regards,
Ben
 
T

toto2010

#5
Re: ISO 9001: 2008 Management Representative and other Managment Staff

Some baggage left over from earlier times in ISO 9001 is the misconception that everything needs to be documented. This is one of those things that there is no specific requirement to document it.

That said, depending on how you have set up your quality management system, you may want to document it, but it is up to you.

If you use an organization chart to help put some structure to 5.5.1 where it says that you need to define the responsibilities and authorities in your organization, you may want to document it there. Please note that define does not necessarily equal document.

You may have a contractual requirement to notify your certification body when you change your management representative.
Thank you very much Big Jim.

So the clause is 5.5.1. I have read and understood it.
You are truly acquainted.

Once again, thank you very much.

Regards,
Toto2010
 
#6
Re: ISO 9001: 2008 Management Representative and other Managment Staff

Hi Andy,

I do have a copy and I have read through clause 1 to 8. I couldn't find the answer. Really appreciate if you can enlighten me directly according to my questions.

Thank you very much.

Regards,
Ben
Aha, I see Ben. You were looking for validation that you knew the correct answer. So many people come here because they didn't (or don't want to) buy the standard. Then we get into all kinds of "ISO says so" answers.

Depending on the size of the organization, it is not required to document this role. In a small organization it should be sufficient to have top management say "You're the management rep, Ben, you have the responsibility to design us a QMS, to maintain it and you have the authority to...blah, blah, blah.

If then, when you have an external audit, the same "story" is told by the top management, then you're good. Not even an org chart is needed.

However, if you are in a much bigger business, then some documentation of the role, who holds it etc. and so on. Often the culture and practice of the business is to issue "position descriptions" etc, and tht may be an option.

If you do change who is the Management Rep, then the "documentation" might be in the form of a management review, since this is a change which might be considered to affect the QMS. Also, competency might have to be demonstrated...
 
M

Mazoku

#7
Re: ISO 9001: 2008 Management Representative and other Managment Staff

My company just went through a Management Rep. change and, as an internal auditor, I'm not sure how to handle this. The previous Management Rep.'s title was Quality Manager. Which I guess is conforming to the standard as he is technically a manager but was really detached from any real management. Anyway, they laid him off about 2 years ago and gave the Management Rep. responsibility to a Manufacturing Engineer. We even recorded that on our Org. chart. I know this is a non-conformance with the standard and has caused the Management Rep. position to be even more detached from Top Management. We somehow passed registrar audits, perhaps they didn't realize his title. As an auditor I feel inclined to bring this up or write it up as a non-conformance during my QA audit but I haven't. I know the guy quite well and I'm assuming he was given a pay raise for his increased responsibilities. He does try to do the best job he can with what he is given. I also know that he supports his wife and child on his salary alone, and I refuse to be responsible for him being demoted. At the same time, our company really is suffering because of it. Management has almost completely detached itself from Quality at this point. I don't really know what I should do now.
 
Q

Quality Bryan

#8
Re: ISO 9001: 2008 Management Representative and other Managment Staff

I believe the standard doesn not specify that the Rep is a QA Manager per say but rather has the authority and direct access to Top Management to resolve all QMS related issues.

For what it is worth, Quality gets pushed in the corner at many large companies. I would run this up your chain for support.
 
M

Mazoku

#9
Re: ISO 9001:2008 Management Representative and other Managment Staff

ISO 9001:2008 Section 5.5.2 Management Representative states:

"Top Management shall appoint a member of the organization's management who, irrespective of other responsibilities, shall ..."

We're a pretty small company too which is sad, less than 70 employees.
 
#10
Re: ISO 9001: 2008 Management Representative and other Managment Staff

I know this is a non-conformance with the standard and has caused the Management Rep. position to be even more detached from Top Management. We somehow passed registrar audits, perhaps they didn't realize his title. As an auditor I feel inclined to bring this up or write it up as a non-conformance during my QA audit but I haven't. I know the guy quite well and I'm assuming he was given a pay raise for his increased responsibilities. He does try to do the best job he can with what he is given. I also know that he supports his wife and child on his salary alone, and I refuse to be responsible for him being demoted. At the same time, our company really is suffering because of it. Management has almost completely detached itself from Quality at this point. I don't really know what I should do now.
It's not really about any of the things you point out. It's all about whether this person can demonstrate competency in the role, and can represent the QMS for management etc. It's NOT a nonconformity, however and having a "manager" title, doesn't really make much difference.
 
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