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ISO 9001:2015 7.2 Competence

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#21
...recruiting someone who is unlikely to become competent wastes the training budget and plays havoc with the life of the unsuccessful recruit and their family.
Who does this? Who deliberately recruits unqualified candidates? No one, that's who. Don't assume that the stated "requirements" reflect everything that's needed for competence on the job.

By carefully defining the abilities, skills and knowledge required to do the job well we can save money and avoid disrupting the lives of our recruits.
It's impossible to know whether any recruit will be competent until we've actually seen them performing the job. I have seen many occasions when qualified candidates crashed and burned.
 
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Mikey324

Quite Involved in Discussions
#22
It's impossible to know whether any recruit will be competent until we've actually seen them performing the job. I have seen many occasions when qualified candidates crashed and burned.
Very true. I've mentioned this before, but we picked up an internal auditor who on paper was almost perfect. Qualifications, experience, etc. In reality, he was a terrible auditor. The only way to determine that is to give them a shot. After i had a chance to monitor them, review their audit reports, and all that good stuff we found we were getting zero value. All those pre-existing qualifications did our organization no good.
 

John Broomfield

Staff member
Super Moderator
#23
Very true. I've mentioned this before, but we picked up an internal auditor who on paper was almost perfect. Qualifications, experience, etc. In reality, he was a terrible auditor. The only way to determine that is to give them a shot. After i had a chance to monitor them, review their audit reports, and all that good stuff we found we were getting zero value. All those pre-existing qualifications did our organization no good.
This person had all the recommended attributes (per ISO 19011)? Or did you focus on qualifications and experience?
 

Marc

Hunkered Down for the Duration with a Mask on...
Staff member
Admin
#25
No one has all of the recommended attributes. I don't know how you can be sure which of the attributes a candidate has until you've seen them in action. Do you know of a way?
This is not to mention the need for a person in the company who is qualified to determine this.
 

Mikey324

Quite Involved in Discussions
#26
This person had all the recommended attributes (per ISO 19011)? Or did you focus on qualifications and experience?
It was a situation where we knew more about the qualifications.

No one has all of the recommended attributes. I don't know how you can be sure which of the attributes a candidate has until you've seen them in action. Do you know of a way?

^^ This is correct. I am just trying to say on paper and interview the person was as textbook fit as you could realistically hope for. In action however, it was lacking in many. I agree with you completely.
 

John Broomfield

Staff member
Super Moderator
#27
If not used preventively for selecting your auditors with the potential to become competent why then do we have the recommended attributes?

Are they used reactively to figure out where we went wrong with the selection of our internal auditors?
 

Big Jim

Super Moderator
#29
The standard is still clear that they need to define what those competencies are whatever method they choose. If they say they use job descriptions and the employee doesn't meet the requirement they laid out they violated the standard. Define is more pointed than simply "whatever we think it should be at the time" which seems to be what many of you are suggesting.

How to determine that they actually have meet the competencies is another matter, but even that can't be done unless they first define what they are.
 

John Broomfield

Staff member
Super Moderator
#30
No one has all of the recommended attributes. I don't know how you can be sure which of the attributes a candidate has until you've seen them in action. Do you know of a way?
Admittedly you’d have to get to know the candidates first but it may also be wise to allow some self deselection for your volunteers by publishing and discussing the recommended behaviors of your auditors:

- ethical
fair, truthful, sincere, honest, and discreet

- open-minded
willing to consider alternative ideas or points of view

- diplomatic
tactful in dealing with people

- observant
actively observing physical surroundings and activities

- perceptive
aware of and able to understand situations

- versatile
able to readily adapt to different situations

- tenacious
persistent and focused on achieving objectives

- decisive
able to reach timely conclusions based on logical reasoning and analysis

- self-reliant
able to act and function independently while interacting effectively with others

- acting with fortitude
able to act responsibly and ethically, even though these actions may not always be popular and may sometimes result in disagreement or confrontation

- open to improvement
willing to learn from situations, and striving for better audit results

- culturally sensitive
observant and respectful to the culture of the auditee

- collaborative
effectively interact with others, including team members and auditee personnel

Some of these may be learned but many cannot.
 
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