ISO 9001:2015 man days for surveillance audit

qcman

Registered Visitor
#1
Is there a chart anywhere that shows the required surveillance audit man days for x number of employees? Fortunately we are still up and running albeit reduced from 2 10hr shifts with 185 employees to 1 - 8hr shift with 85 employees. Figured this would reduce the man days from 2.5 to 1 for the surveillance audit in 2 weeks but registrar still says 2 on sight and 1/2 off.
 
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Tagin

Trusted Information Resource
#2
I think the cutoff for 1 day audits is 25 employees, so with 85 employees active you would still be well above that cutoff.
Edit: maybe that's just the criteria that the company that audits us uses...not sure if there's a universal norm.
 

jmech

Trusted Information Resource
#4
Yes, assuming that your CB is following IAF rules. See IAF Mandatory Document 5 (link below).

Per IAF MD 5 Section 5, the required surveillance audit time should be about 1/3 of the initial certification audit time. It is not clear if the surveillance audit time should be based on the number of employees at the time of the initial audit or at the time of the surveillance audit.

In contrast, for recertification audits, IAF MD 5 Section 6 makes it clear that the recertification audit should be about 2/3 of the time that would be required for an initial certification audit based on the number of employees at the time of the recertification audit.

IAF MD 5 Annex A Table QMS 1 shows the required time based on effective number of personnel (although this can still be modified based on the risk categorization of the organization's activities). From this table, the required initial audit days for 66 - 85 effective personnel is 6 days and for 86 - 125 personnel is 7 days, so 2 or 2.5 days for a surveillance audit of an organization with approximately 85 personnel looks about right.

https://www.iaf.nu/upFiles/IAF MD5 Issue 4 Version 2 11112019.pdf
 

Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Staff member
Admin
#5
It is not clear if the surveillance audit time should be based on the number of employees at the time of the initial audit or at the time of the surveillance audit.
The estimation should be done taking into account the number of employees at the TIME OF THE EVENT. Some seasonal businesses experience massive fluctuation, in terms of employee numbers.
 

qcman

Registered Visitor
#7
Thank you for your replies. I did see MD5 after posting. Talking with the registrar this morning they agreed the reduction to 85 would require 2 man days versus 2.5. The main question was whether employee count would return right back to pre levels. Hope projections are wrong as they show staff trickling back over months. This indicates count is at the time of the event as Sidney stated.
 

jmech

Trusted Information Resource
#8
I did not look closely enough at the second half MD5 Section 5 earlier, which states:
The CAB shall obtain an update of client data related to its management system as part of each surveillance audit. The planned audit time of a surveillance audit shall be reviewed at least at every surveillance and recertification audit to take into account changes in the organization, system maturity, etc. The evidence of review including any adjustments to the audit time of management systems audits shall be recorded.
I think this makes it pretty clear that the surveillance audit time should be based on the count at the time of the event, as Sidney stated.

However, although it shouldn't apply to your situation, there is an exception to this for seasonal operations in Section 2.3.1:
In case of seasonal operations (e.g. harvesting activities, holiday villages and hotels, etc.) the calculation of the effective number of personnel shall be based on the personnel typically present in peak season operations.
You could also review Section 2.3 to see if you can claim any others reductions in effective number of personnel.
 

Randy

Super Moderator
#9
The requirements for me are that I'm to verify employee count, effective employee count, duration and any justifications for increase or reduction during every audit and place that information in the report.....Every single one!

Integrated systems also require the same for each MS involved and the inclusion of requirements from IAF MD-11 (Integrated Systems).

To complicate things further multiple locations require MD-1 application for Multi-Sites.

I have clients where I have to employ MD-5, MD-11 and MD-1,where everything has to balance out and be able to pass an ANAB audit.

These days we're also employing MD-4 for doing Remote audits (ICT)

Next week while working at home I will be under MD-1, MD-5, MD-11, MD-4 (available free to everyone involved) as well as ISO 17021 (not free).
 

jmech

Trusted Information Resource
#10
Randy, in your experience, are QMS audit times normally determined solely based on IAF MD 5 Annex A Table QMS 1 or are there frequently adjustments made based on risk, complexity, system maturity, repetitive processes, etc.?
 
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