ISO 9001:2015 - Management Review 9.3.2 c) 5) - Monitoring and Measurement Results

ganglai

Registered Visitor
#1
Hi all,

I am updating the management review procedure in line with the new standard.

I am not quite sure about what the standard is asking for under the clause of 9.3.2 c) 5) monitoring and measurement results.

Is this to review monitoring and measuring of product and process? But this is covered under 9.3.2 c) 3 process performance and conformity of products and services.

Or this is to review calibration?

Thanks!
 
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Big Jim

Super Moderator
#2
Re: ISO 9001:2015 - Management Review 9.3.2 c) 5) - Monitoring and Measurement Result

I think you are right. There is some redundancy in that list. There is also some redundancy with 9.1.3 Analysis and evaluation.

9.1.3a) conformity of products and services
9.1.3b) the degree of customer satisfaction
9.1.3c) the performance and effectiveness of the quality management system
9.1.3f) the performance of external providers

So in 9.1.3 it is established that you need to measure those four topics. It is not uncommon to use those four topics as quality objectives, and to double up and use them as KPI.

Historically it has been a common approach to measure c), process performance, using on-time delivery (OTD). That is a good indicator overall of how the processes collectively are behaving. It can also be argued that finer detail of how the processes are behaving would be from monitoring all of the KPI.

Management review in 9.3.2c) mandates that you discuss the actual results of these topics and includes some of the same list from the 2008 version of the standard:
1) customer satisfaction
3) process performance and conformity of products and services
That would be three out of four of the topics from 9.1.3 Analysis and evaluation.

For good measure they added in 7), the performance of external providers, so all of the required topics from analysis and evaluation are now included in management review.

So it would appear that 5) would include 1), 3), and 7), as well as anything else that the organization may be monitoring and measuring.

It may have been clearer if 1), 3), & 7) would have been sub-headings of 5) and the numbers realigned to show that.

This is only one of several areas where the standard could have been more tersely and clearly written.
 

ganglai

Registered Visitor
#4
Re: ISO 9001:2015 - Management Review 9.3.2 c) 5) - Monitoring and Measurement Result

I think you are right. There is some redundancy in that list. There is also some redundancy with 9.1.3 Analysis and evaluation.

9.1.3a) conformity of products and services
9.1.3b) the degree of customer satisfaction
9.1.3c) the performance and effectiveness of the quality management system
9.1.3f) the performance of external providers

So in 9.1.3 it is established that you need to measure those four topics. It is not uncommon to use those four topics as quality objectives, and to double up and use them as KPI.

Historically it has been a common approach to measure c), process performance, using on-time delivery (OTD). That is a good indicator overall of how the processes collectively are behaving. It can also be argued that finer detail of how the processes are behaving would be from monitoring all of the KPI.

Management review in 9.3.2c) mandates that you discuss the actual results of these topics and includes some of the same list from the 2008 version of the standard:
1) customer satisfaction
3) process performance and conformity of products and services
That would be three out of four of the topics from 9.1.3 Analysis and evaluation.

For good measure they added in 7), the performance of external providers, so all of the required topics from analysis and evaluation are now included in management review.

So it would appear that 5) would include 1), 3), and 7), as well as anything else that the organization may be monitoring and measuring.

It may have been clearer if 1), 3), & 7) would have been sub-headings of 5) and the numbers realigned to show that.

This is only one of several areas where the standard could have been more tersely and clearly written.
Thank you very much Jim. It is much clearer to me now!
 

Buckyb

Involved In Discussions
#5
Re: ISO 9001:2015 - Management Review 9.3.2 c) 5) - Monitoring and Measurement Result

I am struggling with this in our Management Review (MR). Under the 2008 Standard all MR Inputs and Outputs could be used as sub headings in the MR agenda. Now, how do you prove that all topics are included in the MR when the interpretation is not clear? "monitoring and measurement results" of what?? Our processes; our calibrated equipment or how many times we monitor and measure product??? You're right Big Jim, there are a number of places where the Standard could have been more tersely and clearly written (understatement).
 

Dr. IJ Arora

Involved In Discussions
#6
Hi all,

I am updating the management review procedure in line with the new standard.

I am not quite sure about what the standard is asking for under the clause of 9.3.2 c) 5) monitoring and measurement results.

Is this to review monitoring and measuring of product and process? But this is covered under 9.3.2 c) 3 process performance and conformity of products and services.

Or this is to review calibration?

Thanks!
My thought is these are in a way similar but not exactly so! The output of processes should result in confirming products and services, as applicable. In 9.3.2 c 3 you are (your TM is) reviewing inputs on process performance resulting in confirming products.. In this connection do please connect it to the requirements of 5.1.1 c & g in that intended results are achieved. The ROI, profitability, RMA and so on should be considered.
When reviewing per 0.3.2 c 5, please connect it to the requirements of 6.1.1. Here the TM is looking at data driving trends and risk appreciation. Actual numbers and the trends they are showing must be reviewed. Hope this helps. Please feel free to ask more questions if you like. Good luck with your MRs.
 

Big Jim

Super Moderator
#7
My thought is these are in a way similar but not exactly so! The output of processes should result in confirming products and services, as applicable. In 9.3.2 c 3 you are (your TM is) reviewing inputs on process performance resulting in confirming products.. In this connection do please connect it to the requirements of 5.1.1 c & g in that intended results are achieved. The ROI, profitability, RMA and so on should be considered.
When reviewing per 0.3.2 c 5, please connect it to the requirements of 6.1.1. Here the TM is looking at data driving trends and risk appreciation. Actual numbers and the trends they are showing must be reviewed. Hope this helps. Please feel free to ask more questions if you like. Good luck with your MRs.
You should keep in mind that ISO 9001 does not get into financials. Auditors should avoid getting into things like return on investment and profitability. That's over reaching.

Yes, paying attention to the financials is crucial to any business, but it is outside of where ISO 9001 goes.
 

Dr. IJ Arora

Involved In Discussions
#8
You should keep in mind that ISO 9001 does not get into financials. Auditors should avoid getting into things like return on investment and profitability. That's over reaching.

Yes, paying attention to the financials is crucial to any business, but it is outside of where ISO 9001 goes.
Your are correct and if I may submit and suggest, in this case it is not financials, so not relevant. Respectfully suggested. 5.1.1 b & c does not imply financials, and yet it implies how the business is doing. Studying indicators as returns and rejection is not financials (though it will mean that when profit and loss is seen, but not under ISO 9001 as you correctly mentioned). So the rejections, or broadening the thought indicators on product or service being rejected as non conforming, for example must be considered. Anything that relates to business performance in terms of the management system performance should be considered. That they will have financial impacts, yes. But yes, financials are a separate thought and then they will be considered by the TM, outside of the ISO 9001. Many thanks Big Jim, for this observation, enabling me to further amplify my thought.
 
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