ISO 9001:2015 - Scope of Registration

[Sidney Vianna]

As I said, if the organization provides “delivery services” as a stand-alone service line, but don’t want that part of the business to be certified, the CB auditor can not unilaterally force them to include that as part of the scope of certification.

The organization is the one that determines the scope of certification. The CB has to confirm no exclusions are allowed to be claimed if that affects the declared scope of certification.

 

[AndyN]

Scopes have always been the subject of silliness. Who doesn't do "sales" and "delivery"? I mean, seriously? An organization provides product and then doesn't "deliver" it? Even if it's f.o.b their dock and the customer picks it up, it's still delivered. I fully understand that there are exceptions, and in particular with the 2015 version there's some tweaking, but for an upgrade audit? What went before is no longer acceptable? Pure and utter rubbish. I'd like to talk with this auditor and see if they had a clue about some of the new aspects of the standard! Did they question your "new" internal audit program, for example?

 

[Pancho]

I keep getting surprised by how sensitive everyone here seems to be to getting a NC written up during an audit. I know that some specialized fields (ie, medical) carry penalties for NCs. But here we’re talking about iso 9001.

IMO, all NCs and observations are to be welcomed! I really don’t care which way the auditor classes something she spots. Their value is in spotting. Nearly every such spot is an opportunity to improve the system, and even in the rare occasion that a NC is really only a whim, understanding their perspective usually provides some knowledge.

Auditors are our friends, even if, as them, they’re sometimes scary.

 

[AndyN]

I keep getting surprised by how sensitive everyone here seems to be to getting a NC written up during an audit. I know that some specialized fields (ie, medical) carry penalties for NCs. But here we’re talking about iso 9001.

IMO, all NCs and observations are to be welcomed! I really don’t care which way the auditor classes something she spots. Their value is in spotting. Nearly every such spot is an opportunity to improve the system, and even in the rare occasion that a NC is really only a whim, understanding their perspective usually provides some knowledge.

Auditors are our friends, even if, as them, they’re sometimes scary.

Pancho: I want whatever you've been drinking! I'm not sure what exposure you get to CB audits findings on a regular basis, but I can assure you I've seen some things written up which completely blow your hypothesis apart. Completely fictitious findings written by auditors how "have to " find something. What's to be welcomed there? I mean that seriously. Who has time to even read rubbish findings, let alone anything else. BTW what ever it is, I'll take a case. PayPal OK?

 

[Pancho]

See what I mean?

 

[AndyN]

See what I mean?

I can only guess that you've had some excellent experience with auditors. Enjoy! One only has to read the types of BS findings clients post here to see that a significant number are busy work and of zero value. Most folks have no time for their jobs, let alone dealing with the silliness of ineffective auditors.

 

[Randy]

I can only guess that you've had some excellent experience with auditors. Enjoy! One only has to read the types of BS findings clients post here to see that a significant number are busy work and of zero value. Most folks have no time for their jobs, let alone dealing with the silliness of ineffective auditors.

Could it be that if an AB doesn't see NC's in a report they automatically assume soft balling? Naa, surely not.

 

[Sidney Vianna]

Could it be that if an AB doesn't see NC's in a report they automatically assume soft balling? Naa, surely not.

Anyone who jumps to a conclusion based on a sample of one clearly does not understand statistics. But there are those who are in oversight positions and see a supplier delivering bad products quite consistently and, when analyzing the last 6 years of CB audit results, with zero nonconformities reported, some conclusions about the caliber of the CB auditors can (and should) be reached.

Recently here at the Cove we had reports of auditors writing nonconformities because they expected an organization to ensure that all of their suppliers knew their quality policy, a stupidity that deserves the Darwin Award for 2018. Another one that would require a distributor to perform source inspection of parts before they are drop shipped to a customer.

While there are many great 3rd party auditors out there, the commoditization of system certification means that some CB’s are paying peanuts to their auditors. In general, high caliber professionals don’t agree to work for peanuts.

I agree with Andy. There are some asinine auditors out there doing a lot of damage; not only for their “clients”, but the whole system certification business.

 

[Golfman25]

I keep getting surprised by how sensitive everyone here seems to be to getting a NC written up during an audit. I know that some specialized fields (ie, medical) carry penalties for NCs. But here we’re talking about iso 9001.

IMO, all NCs and observations are to be welcomed! I really don’t care which way the auditor classes something she spots. Their value is in spotting. Nearly every such spot is an opportunity to improve the system, and even in the rare occasion that a NC is really only a whim, understanding their perspective usually provides some knowledge.

Auditors are our friends, even if, as them, they’re sometimes scary.

Nothing destroys a QMS quicker than bogus, non-substantive non-conformances. Try doing root cause and corrective action on a meaningless "finding." People are quickly turned against the ISO concept very quickly as it proves their previously held beliefs.

 

[AndyN]

I keep getting surprised by how sensitive everyone here seems to be to getting a NC written up during an audit. I know that some specialized fields (ie, medical) carry penalties for NCs. But here we’re talking about iso 9001.

IMO, all NCs and observations are to be welcomed! I really don’t care which way the auditor classes something she spots. Their value is in spotting. Nearly every such spot is an opportunity to improve the system, and even in the rare occasion that a NC is really only a whim, understanding their perspective usually provides some knowledge.

Auditors are our friends, even if, as them, they’re sometimes scary.

I know of a client who was warned, by their CB auditor, that their IATF auditor training certificate MUST reference ISO 9001:2015! It would become a MAJOR nc at the stage 2 if not fixed.

Would someone help me to understand the value in this?