Interesting Discussion ISO 9001:2024 - What should be changed in the next Edition of ISO 9001? - REVISION CANCELLED May 2021

I guess the point I was going on to make was that we see little evidence of audits being used as a tool for improvement as things are now
It was ever thus. We use the wrong model for internal audits and certification is handed down, at the suppliers' cost added to which the CB audit results are tenuous at best. Many customers lack any faith in the Certification process since the suppliers are still not delivering quality (but all their gauges have calibration stickers on them and their documents are stamped "Uncontrolled - for refence only") - insert sarcastic emoji here...
 
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HI all, i am new to the forum but i have some remarks on the current ISO 9001:2015 norm.
One very important topic is not clearly covered. Organizational knowledge chapter 7.1.6 is only describing the internal exchange and sharing knowledge inside the organization. Because this knowledge shouldn't be shared with third parties (knowledge leakage, loss of competitive position) there is nothing mentioned about this and by this there is nothing to refer in the norm when customers ask confidential data/knowledge.
Another point is the implementation of KPI's. From my point of view this should be mentioned in chapter 9, Performance evaluation.
Thanks in advance for your inputs.
 

John Broomfield

Leader
Super Moderator
Limiting access to knowledge is not covered but controlling access to confidential information is.

Employees not sharing their knowledge with competitors is a good idea but is beyond the scope of a quality management systems standard.

The standard also specifies the use of objectives and KPIs would be examples of such objectives.

But nothing in the standard stops users from adding their own requirements for their management systems and those of their suppliers.

Global standards that are tied into numerous certification schemes are slow to change so we’d be well advised not to take our lead from such standards.
 
Thanks John, so if i understand correctly, i can cover all monitoring,measure etc. by KPI's in chapter 9.1.1 and as i found out i can protect organizational knowledge as confidential information by §7.5.3.1 b)
 
One of the blessings of Organizational Knowledge is that it doesn't require record keeping. It would be wise to keep it that way.

6.2 and 9.1.3 would be better examples of using KPI. I liked the 2008 version wording a little better as is more clearly showed four topics you need to measure providing a great hint of things to measure with objectives / KPI. That would be customer satisfaction, product quality, a measure of overall quality management system efficiency (often covered by measuring on-time delivery), and supplier performance. 2015 also covers it but added topics that are not so clear to accommodate how to include risk in the wording (but not as a KPI).

Speaking of efficiency, there is no reason that you can't use your quality objectives to fulfill several requirements, not just 6.1. The same set can satisfy 4.4 for monitoring and measuring your processes, 9.1.1 again for monitoring and measuring, one of them can cover 9.1.2 customer satisfaction, and 9.1.3 a, b, c, & f portions of Analysis and Evaluation. Of course, you can use an individual set metrics for each if you want to complicate your life.
 
What i am missing in the current ISO9001:2015 version is clear definition of organizational knowledge, not concerning internal training of staff, but protection of organizational knowledge to external parties. There is nothing mentioned to IP either.
 

John Broomfield

Leader
Super Moderator
In ISO 9001:2015, companies have the responsibility of documenting their processes. This documentation, by nature, includes knowledge. Organizations are responsible for their processes, and employees are responsible for their knowledge. ISO 9001 : 2015 outlines this responsibility, as well as what a company must do to protect this vital information.
Proqits,

Employees may be responsible for their education but the skills and knowledge necessary to plan, operate and improve the company’s processes are the result of some of the company’s processes such as recruiting and training.

John
 
In ISO 9001:2015, companies have the responsibility of documenting their processes. This documentation, by nature, includes knowledge. Organizations are responsible for their processes, and employees are responsible for their knowledge. ISO 9001 : 2015 outlines this responsibility, as well as what a company must do to protect this vital information.
You are really reaching beyond what the standard actually says.
 

Enghabashy

Involved In Discussions
*In new proposed changes ; I hope to stopping the dreamers , they always imagine the organizations as Utopia & Ideal city ; the representing technical industries & manufacturing should concentrated in technical committees rather than business consultants who earn from their lectures & their talking only , the Quality management standard is full of interested parties , context ,organization boundaries , --etc. which are elastic issues , the risk assessment is substituting the prevention & preventive actions which are not enough in many technical standard like IATF 16949 “ prevention , traceability & Q manual are still exist --- all new 2015 issues / requirements are giving the certification bodies auditors the keys of open NCs without tangible evidences ' , many of auditors are mixing their opinions with their duties ; as example' the stakeholders /interested parties & company context could be limited in one but enlarged with other, specially with mixing OHS /EMS interested parties issues --- ,

* the design requirements now approaching to be shallow regarding the product ; they canceling many basics in design guidance which stated before in excellent application & guidance of improvements in ISO 9004 :2000 , the last ISO 9004 :2018 ' model of excellence/ achieve sustained success --are actually models of dreamers ,

*the management system standards are approaching the globalization issues and far slowly from the product Q & technical prevention measures --- I see that if the new technical committees are discarding EMS , OHS - Social responsibility & other business consultants members & they could be approaching of Quality technical committees' – hence we can see new improved technical & improved management changes which may approach again of most of manufactures core elements, approaching customers needs & expectations .
 
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