ISO 9001:2105 - Are OFI or Corrective actions required?

embedded

Starting to get Involved
#41
Thanks so much for everyone's help. I'm learning more an more thanks to you!

The broader topic here that I'm struggling with is when is the ball in managements court and when is it in qualities court(I think the key is if an issue is a nonconformance - some requirement or process was violated).

We're a small company and relatively new to ISO, but it's feeling like management has been taking the easy way out when things go wrong by saying this is a quality issue, quality needs to fix it and then management washes their hands of the problem. We're trying to change the culture but I'm finding this to be more difficult than I would have expected. Please note we're a pretty flat organization, where engineering drives most aspects of the business and we have few people in management roles.

Thanks again for everyone's help!
 

Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Staff member
Admin
#42
We're trying to change the culture but I'm finding this to be more difficult than I would have expected.
Who exactly is trying to change the culture? Underlings CAN'T change the culture of an organization, especially if that involves making a derelict management accountable and involved. From what you say, management likes the blame game and the buck stops elsewhere approach.

Good luck.
 

John Broomfield

Fully retired...
Staff member
Super Moderator
#43
embedded,

Your leaders may have been forced into certification by an important customer. You may be looking at the symptoms of leaders not connecting ISO, quality or certification to improved business performance.

You may find that your leaders don’t speak the language of quality but they will be comfortable talking about the importance of understanding and meeting customer requirements.

They’ll also recognize the importance of planning to exploit opportunities and addressing risks as quickly and as effectively as possible. After all efficient use of capital results in more profit.

Showing how the management system helps everyone to do this is your contribution. If your colleagues are in any doubt about the commitment of top management they may see quality as your job and not theirs.

It seems here that you may have an opportunity to help your leaders to invest a day in a workshop developing the management system’s awareness materials for introducing new employees. Help your leaders to articulate their thoughts, concerns and passion for customers and their management system.

Video the dry runs to build a prototype for the existing employees. Agree the final edit with the boss and make it part of your recruiting process to bring new employees onboard with a clear understand of what the system should do for them and how they make it even better.

Don’t even try to make them speak the language of ISO. Hopefully no one calls it the ISO System!

Good luck,

John
 

John Broomfield

Fully retired...
Staff member
Super Moderator
#46
Yes, provided “my job” includes my interactions with my process team members who may be employees working in other departments.
 

Marc

Retired Old Goat
Staff member
Admin
#47
Yes, provided “my job” includes my interactions with my process team members who may be employees working in other departments.
That is always the case, isn't it? Have you ever known of a job position, other than in a movie, where a person works alone with no interactions with others in the company?

Who the person reports to at the very least. 'Team' members, as appropriate, are typically identified in cross-functional team functional descriptions and related documents, but you know that. Those an employee is expected to communicate with are typically defined somewhere (or trained), just as limitations are also typically defined or trained (e.g.: You're a press operator - If you want to communicate with the design department personnel, talk to your manager first).

An example would be a scheduler - They typically communicate with several departments.

I made the above which I linked to in the mid-1990's and I don't believe anything has changed. Auditees are only responsible to know about their jobs. It was a primary understanding that kept employees at ease when they understood that they had no need to know anything about ISO 9001, for example.
 

embedded

Starting to get Involved
#48
You may be looking at the symptoms of leaders not connecting ISO, quality or certification to improved business performance.

You may find that your leaders don’t speak the language of quality but they will be comfortable talking about the importance of understanding and meeting customer requirements.

They’ll also recognize the importance of planning to exploit opportunities and addressing risks as quickly and as effectively as possible. After all efficient use of capital results in more profit.

Showing how the management system helps everyone to do this is your contribution.
You hit the nail on the head. Ownership sees quality as a way for us to attract business(bigger customers require certification and require audits before they'll do business with us). In some cases I've been able to convince them quality is indeed helping us to have a more successful business($), but they still consider quality as a marketing expense. I feel like with patience and persistence I can eventually help them to see the value of quality, but more importantly if I'm able to setup effective quality processes they'll see the value of the quality processes(actions speak louder than words).

Also, we're a small business and I had a full time management job before I was asked to take over quality(last quality guy was fired) as well as my old job, so I have influence to change the culture, but wow is it hard to convince someone that thinks they are smarter than everyone else(engineering centric company) and has a preconceived notion that most ISO requirements are a waste of money otherwise. In regards to getting management to take a training course, I don't think there is much hope as we did a management training session as part of ISO 2015 transition and they just don't get it, they don't see the value(some do in some areas). I don't know if it's close mindedness, or something else but to most of them it's a waste of time and money. It's a challenge, but I really appreciate all of your input. This group seems very pragmatic / business savvy, and I think we've had a couple quality professionals that were not, that may have soured our management team.
 

John Broomfield

Fully retired...
Staff member
Super Moderator
#49
embedded,

Thank for more background info.

In my experience culture change either takes a crisis or a generation, hence the saying “never let a crisis go to waste”.

Meanwhile, teaming up with an influential engineer to share philosophy on the betterment of the company and agreeing mutual ground may be necessary to keep the ball rolling towards the goal.

If this engineer is a senior manager too then all the better. A survey of organizational beliefs may also help.

From this the two of you may agree what needs to change and devise a plan on how best to secure that change but it must include both the leaders by job title and the leaders by personality.

Of course, getting 100% of the people onside straight away is unrealistic. But once you have about 34% (1 SD) 100% committed to the message the other 34% about the mean usually to become part of the change. The most strident objectors eventually are replaced, retire or leave.

Best wishes,

John
 

Ninja

Looking for Reality
Trusted
#50
Not at all disagreeing with John...but simply another take on it...

Once you get the head of your authority chain committed...you can progress without fear of this...
it then becomes his/her fight to keep you going, and they have more sway than you do...and frees you up to get things done...
 

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