ISO 9001 - 8.5.3 Overlapping with 8.4 and 8.5.4?

qualprod

Trusted Information Resource
#1
Hello everybody
It came across to my mind this issue regarding the care of property:

8.5.3 Property belonging to customers or external providers
The organization shall exercise care with property belonging to customers or external providers while
it is under the organization’s control
or being used by the organization.
The organization shall identify, verify, protect and safeguard customers’ or external providers’ property
provided for use or incorporation into the products and services.

When the property of a customer or external provider is lost, damaged or otherwise found to be
unsuitable for use, the organization shall report this to the customer or external provider and retain
documented information on what has occurred.

My comments:
Focusing on products, Raw materials, Tools.

For Customers is clear, I can receive parts that will receive some modification or other process applied (painting,finishing) , maybe some raw material, I´ll apply 8.5.3 in order to take care of it, In fact it´s property of my customer.

But for External providers, most of what receive are: raw materials,equipment, In this case , I think the standard should specify that is for raw materials or equipment maybe in lent condition in order to take care of them, because if is to be used for production or implementation, these conditions (care) are already considered in 8.4 (verification of purchased materials) and 8.5.4 Preservation.
Additionally, because if it enters in the organization as a bought raw material, now is property of my organization.

The only conditions where is still property of an external provider is in lent condition.

In which cases or conditions do you think I have to control them under 8.5.3?.

Don´t you think this clause in the case of control of property of external providers are overlapped with 8.4 and 8.5.4?
regarding the control? and the term "property" is not clearly explained in its scope.

Please share your thoughts.

Thanks
 
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Cari Spears

Super Moderator
Staff member
Super Moderator
#2
We have a few customers that require us to have a documented procedure for control of customer property. I cover both in the procedure: material or components that will be incorporated into our final product (3.3), and tools, etc. that the customer sends to us for use in manufacturing or inspection and we return when we're done (3.4).
 

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Cari Spears

Super Moderator
Staff member
Super Moderator
#6
No, 8.4 and 8.5.3 do not overlap. The external providers referenced in 8.5.3 does not mean suppliers. 8.5.3 is not about materials that your company buys - it's about materials and property that is being provided to you. Material being provided by the customer still belongs to them - you can't charge them for material when sell your product to them. If you buy the material from a supplier, you now own that material, not the supplier; and that material isn't owned by the customer until you ship your final product.

We sometimes use master gages and other things that are owned by companies other than us or our customer. Our customer arranges for that company to deliver the thing to us for use in manufacturing, then we return it. We also deal with government owned property that our customers arrange to have sent to us. Those are examples of external providers as pertains to 8.5.3.
 
Last edited:

Big Jim

Trusted Information Resource
#7
Of course external providers referenced in 8.5.3 are the same as in 8.4. In both cases the old terminology was suppliers. In both cases you are talking about suppliers.

My experience with helping several companies transition from the 2008 version of the standard to the 2015 version is that having supplier property is unusual. Examples can include equipment that you rent or lease, dedicated shipping containers that are expected to be used again, and samples that are on loan (they weren't gifts and title hasn't transferred).

If it belongs to a supplier, it is supplier property, and the responsibility to care for it falls under 8.5.3.
 

qualprod

Trusted Information Resource
#8
I agree completely with you Jim

The organization shall identify, verify, protect and safeguard customers’ or external providers’ property
provided for use or incorporation into the products and services.

However , according to the standard (see upper definition) is somewhat confuse.
Because if comes from the suppliers (raw material) to be used into the products and services, normally is raw material or parts.
immediately when enters into the company, becomes in property of the company who buys the material, so the care will not apply under 8.5.3.
will fall in 8.4
Dont´you think so?

Thanks
 

Big Jim

Trusted Information Resource
#9
I agree completely with you Jim

The organization shall identify, verify, protect and safeguard customers’ or external providers’ property
provided for use or incorporation into the products and services.

However , according to the standard (see upper definition) is somewhat confuse.
Because if comes from the suppliers (raw material) to be used into the products and services, normally is raw material or parts.
immediately when enters into the company, becomes in property of the company who buys the material, so the care will not apply under 8.5.3.
will fall in 8.4
Dont´you think so?

Thanks
I think you are hung up with the transfer of title. I also think you are overthinking the "provided for use or incorporation into the products and services".

For all intent and purpose the organization takes title when it is delivered. Sometimes it can even happen sooner, when it ships, depending on the terms of sale. You are creating a red herring trying too hard to figure out how to apply "provided for use or incorporation into the products and services".
 

atitheya

Quite Involved in Discussions
#10
To my mind, the three clauses 8.4, 8.5.3, and 8.5.4 are three distinct requirements of the standard ISO9001;2015. They may or may not involve the same people, products and service.

8.4 Control of externally provided processes, products and services - talks of evaluation / re-evaluation of external providers, process of obtaining process, product or service from external providers, verification of such process, product and services.

It does not talk about keeping safe the properties of such external providers and / or customer. Neither does it talk about keeping safe the procured, intermediate or final product and services.

8.5.3 Property belonging to customers or external providers - talks about keeping safe the property of external providers and / of customer.

It does not talk of evaluation / re-evaluation of external providers, process of obtaining process, product or service from external providers, verification of such process, product and services.. Neither does it talk about keeping safe the procured, intermediate or final product and services

8.5.4 Preservation - talks of keeping safe the outputs of company’s own processes and system, I.e. keeping safe the procured, intermediate or final product and services..

It does not talk of evaluation / re-evaluation of external providers, process of obtaining process, product or service from external providers, verification of such process, product and services. Neither does it talk about keeping safe the the properties of external providers and / or customers.

Where is the overlap?

There is no overlap.
 
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