ISO 9001 and Public Schools - Under continuous fire for low student achievement

[JW9000]

Re: ISO 9001 and Public Schools

Actually you do have contractual control over your suppliers, whereas you do not have contractual control over the inputs in a school system. Very much like having the responsibility without the authority.

I have no control over the quality of products delivered to my company. All I can do is reject the products if they fail to meet my specifications. In cases where there is only one supplier, I have to make do with what shows up at my door. Yes, I can stamp and holler, but I cannot force my supplier to improve his processes. I can't even sit in on his meetings.

Maybe the workers at my supplier's company are depressed and churning out bad stuff, just like parents are irresponsible and raising bad kids. If the supplier is the only one available, I will have to make do. That should have no effect on my own QMS whatsoever.

Do a turtle. Do a fishbone. What IS the output? What factors CAN you control, and what are 'noise'?

There is no compelling reason to perform such analyses for the processes I am discussing, as they do not align to the needs of the organization.

What can a school control?

The alignment of assignments teachers deliver to students.
The rigor of assignments teachers deliver to students.
The percentage of time used in various on-task/off-task activities.
The frequency in which certain teaching strategies are deployed by teachers.

We can measure all four quantitatively. The precision, however, changes from one measure to the next.

If the education the school delivers is the measurable, what is the quantitative measure, and what is the gage R&R of the technique for measurement? Does it pass?

Let's talk outside of jargon.

One example of a measurement is the percentage of student assignments that align to district standards. The tolerances are up to the district, for no one entity has the authority to assign such tolerances. One important aspect of education reform is internal capacity--school systems define their own requirements. ISO certification would be a process to ensure that whatever tolerances are defined by the district are being upheld (to within reason, of course).

I don't see how precise gauge R&R measurements play a role here, since the measurements are somewhat subjective.

By the way, I am posting under the assumption that ISO has a role to play in school systems, but is missing fundamental components for it to be successful. If your argument that education is inherently uncertifiable and that ISO should stay the **** out of schools, then that is a different argument. I would need to know more about ISO to judge the validity of that argument.

 

[bobdoering]

Re: ISO 9001 and Public Schools

I have no control over the quality of products delivered to my company. All I can do is reject the products if they fail to meet my specifications. In cases where there is only one supplier, I have to make do with what shows up at my door. Yes, I can stamp and holler, but I cannot force my supplier to improve his processes. I can't even sit in on his meetings.

You have as much control as is written in the purchase order requirements - if they accept it, and if you accept them as a supplier. That is not equivalent to no control - nor is it absolute control.

There is no compelling reason to perform such analyses for the processes I am discussing, as they do not align to the needs of the organization. You may do a turtle for the projects you monitor, but that doesn't mean that I must.

There is a compelling reason, to see if there is any validity whatsoever in the proposed approach. Sure, you can pick whatever tool you want to sort out your inputs and outputs - but it is clear they have not been sorted out, yet.

One example of a measurement is the percentage of student assignments that align to district standards. The tolerances are up to the district, for no one entity has the authority to assign such tolerances. One important aspect of education reform is internal capacity--school systems define their own requirements. ISO certification would be a process to ensure that whatever tolerances are defined by the district are being upheld (to within reason, of course).

So, the measure is how precisely each instructor's curriculum meets a specifically defined master curriculum for each course? So, what's the measure? What's the resolution? Do you look line by line at the syllabus? Is their a daily accounting of what has transpired in the class? How often is this measurement taken, and is it frequent enough to catch "special causes" and put in corrective action?

I don't see how precise gauge R&R measurements play a role here, since the measurements are somewhat subjective.

You can call minimize the point by attempting to call it "jargon", but the point is still if your measures are not effective, then your conclusions are not either and you are wasting time with the measurement process. That is the correlation to gage R&R - and your own statement of the "subjectiveness of the measures" pretty much supports my point. Even visual standards have gage R&R - so subjectiveness can be tested for effectiveness.

The key here is that the goals and the assessment methodologies appear to be inadequate to generate solid conclusions. I don't have the specifics, but having dealt with education assessment, what I have read here so far does not draw me to any other conclusion.

I would need to know more about ISO to judge the validity of that argument.

I will give you that.

 

[LSS Master]

Re: ISO 9001 and Public Schools

As a newcomer to this site, I am not fully up to speed. However, I was intrigued by this topic, as I lead the very first successful ISO 9000 registration ever of an educational institution.

Many of the issues raised in this threaded conversation had to be addressed then, as well. I had to have a conversation with the Registrar, in order to define terms such as "customer", "product", "nonconforming product", etc. Once the basic definitions were agreed upon, the process of preparing them for registration went fairly well.

I also obtained registration for the first golf resort/hotel complex in the U.S., and the first ISO-compliant QMS in a family practice (they chose not to obtain registration, but the QMS was in place, documented, and fully functional, including internal audits, corrective and preventive actions, etc.).

In my experience, the Standard can be applied to any organization, providing any product or service. It is intended to me molded to conform to the organization's way of doing business, form a basis for contracts with customers, and provide a framework for continuous improvement.

 

[JW9000]

Re: ISO 9001 and Public Schools

You have as much control as is written in the purchase order requirements - if they accept it, and if you accept them as a supplier. That is not equivalent to no control - nor is it absolute control.

I think you are confusing specifications with control. I can specify all I want. What shows up... shows up.

There is a compelling reason, to see if there is any validity whatsoever in the proposed approach. Sure, you can pick whatever tool you want to sort out your inputs and outputs - but it is clear they have not been sorted out, yet.

Why do you say that? I have specified four input processes that are directly measurable and quantifiable.

Now, are they measurable to aircraft-grade specifications? No. Educational processes will never be measurable to that degree, nor would that even be necessarily desirable.

The problem I am pointing is that the product (the delivered curriculum and instruction) is not even being measured at all. The key word here is PROCESS. The process employed by schools does not provide for measuring the final product.

So, try not to focus on how WE do it. Let's talk more generally. If I produce a product and never put a system in place to measure the quality of the product (never minding for the time how accurate and precise the measurement), does ISO have anything to say about that?

We can talk later about how effective we can measure these processes. Let's first answer the question: Should they be measured as part of an ISO certification requirement?

 

[JW9000]

Re: ISO 9001 and Public Schools

As a newcomer to this site, I am not fully up to speed. However, I was intrigued by this topic, as I lead the very first successful ISO 9000 registration ever of an educational institution.

Many of the issues raised in this threaded conversation had to be addressed then, as well. I had to have a conversation with the Registrar, in order to define terms such as "customer", "product", "nonconforming product", etc. Once the basic definitions were agreed upon, the process of preparing them for registration went fairly well.

I also obtained registration for the first golf resort/hotel complex in the U.S., and the first ISO-compliant QMS in a family practice (they chose not to obtain registration, but the QMS was in place, documented, and fully functional, including internal audits, corrective and preventive actions, etc.).

In my experience, the Standard can be applied to any organization, providing any product or service. It is intended to me molded to conform to the organization's way of doing business, form a basis for contracts with customers, and provide a framework for continuous improvement.

So, out of curiosity, what did you decide was a customer, product, and non-conforming product?

 

[Jim Wynne]

Re: ISO 9001 and Public Schools

Parental involvement lies outside the responsibility of a school district. If I am in the manufacturing business, my process control cannot govern the manner in which my suppliers develop their products.

In the OP, you characterized students as customers. This causes problems for your thesis, I think. In industry, customers define the requirements, and ISO 9001 is a way for customers to have some level of comfort with suppliers' process controls and ability to meet the requirements. What would the analog be in a public school district, again assuming that students are the customers?

The key is NOT to focus on outcomes. That is the fundamental mistake of education and one that certification should strive to avoid. The child is not the product, neither is his success on state test scores. The product is the education the school delivers, which can be measured to a large extent but is almost never.

Measured how? How can you not focus on outcomes? ISO 9001 is all about focusing on outcomes, and how you get to them.

 

[Jim Wynne]

Re: ISO 9001 and Public Schools

We can talk later about how effective we can measure these processes.

If we can't talk now about what and how to measure, and the measurement results' efficacy in terms of evaluation of success or failure, there isn't much point in discussing the situation. What to measure and how to measure it is THE big question, and if you can answer it, you won't need ISO 9001.

Let's first answer the question: Should they be measured as part of an ISO certification requirement?

No, the question should be "Why would we need ISO 9001 if we don't know what to measure and how to measure it?"

 

[JW9000]

Re: ISO 9001 and Public Schools

In the OP, you characterized students as customers. This causes problems for your thesis, I think.

Actually, I got my definition from the IWA:

"5.1 Management commitment Top management should identify the educational service which satisfies the needs and expectations of the learner.

NOTE 1 In this International Workshop Agreement, the learner is the customer.

NOTE 2 In this International Workshop Agreement, the education service is the product."


If I had been involved in the conference, I would have raised serious hackles about their definition. But I figured that was the accepted definition and so I used students as customers because I didn't want to move away from the focus of my arguments.

In my view, parents are the customers. Is that how you view it? If not, who do define as the customer?

In industry, customers define the requirements, and ISO 9001 is a way for customers to have some level of comfort with suppliers' process controls and ability to meet the requirements. What would the analog be in a public school district, again assuming that students are the customers?

As I said, parents are the customer because they are, in essence, the ones that need satisfying. Some parents more than others. One could also say that the community is the customer or (on a larger scale) society is the customer. It depends on how local you view the impact of the school.

Measured how? How can you not focus on outcomes? ISO 9001 is all about focusing on outcomes, and how you get to them.

You can focus on outcomes, and that is what schools do, but it doesn't sound very Demings. In my view, you focus on input processes, so you examine how the wheels are put on the car, not just whether the wheels fell off.

Sure, test scores matter and I am not arguing for turning a blind eye to them. But merely testing students does not improve how teachers teach or what they teach. This is the problem with education--all they measure to any meaningful extent is the outcome. So my students failed math. Now what do I do?

Where does this problem appear in the real world? Well, I hear textbook publishers asked, "Did your textbook increase student achievement?" all the time. Wrong question, because it relies on outcome measurements to verify the quality of an input process. The question should be, "Does your textbook increase standards alignment and cognitive rigor"?

 

[JW9000]

Re: ISO 9001 and Public Schools

If we can't talk now about what and how to measure, and the measurement results' efficacy in terms of evaluation of success or failure, there isn't much point in discussing the situation. What to measure and how to measure it is THE big question, and if you can answer it, you won't need ISO 9001.

I would think you would want to first answer the question, "Do we need to measure it?"

Why go through the trouble of deciding if it can be measured, and how it can be measured, if you are later going to decide you don't need to measure it?

Sorry, I just don't understand your logic.

 

[Jim Wynne]

Re: ISO 9001 and Public Schools

If we can't talk now about what and how to measure, and the measurement results' efficacy in terms of evaluation of success or failure, there isn't much point in discussing the situation. What to measure and how to measure it is THE big question, and if you can answer it, you won't need ISO 9001.

I would think you would want to first answer the question, "Do we need to measure it?"

Why go through the trouble of deciding if it can be measured, and how it can be measured, if you are later going to decide you don't need to measure it?

I'm assuming that because ISO 9001 involves measuring/evaluating things (all that continual improvement stuff) that needing things to measure (objectives) was a foregone conclusion and deciding whether something needs to be measured is part of the process. Do you feel that it's possible (or even logical) to seek ISO registration without measuring anything?

Sorry, I just don't understand your logic.

You're not alone.