ISO 9001 Auditing Practices Group - Guidance on Auditing Includes 9001:2015 Material

[Colin]

Re: ISO offers free-of-charge ISO 9001:2000 'auditing kit'

I quite agree in not losing the focus of the system. Yes, we should have a documented system which assists us in preventing nonconformity, satisfying customers and helping us achieve a more effective and efficient business and this is what should be audited.

At the same time, if we are claiming compliance with an International standard, we must be able to verify that we are indeed complying with it. The audit should verify that the system meets the standard, the organisation are complying with the system and that the system is effective in helping to run the business in the way that suits top management and customers. Which is why we audit processes rather than clauses.

 

[CarolX]

Re: ISO offers free-of-charge ISO 9001:2000 'auditing kit'

I want to add a special shoutout to Sidney for consistently supplying links to credible official sites for details and insight into interpretations of ISO Standards clauses and methods and techniques of auditing those Standards which can be used by in-house auditors as well as third party auditors.

Well said, Wes. You are so very right!

Sidney - a personal thanks from me on your continual sharing of information. Your contributions are invaluable!!

 

[Sidney Vianna]

Re: ISO offers free-of-charge ISO 9001:2000 'auditing kit'

I want to add a special shoutout to Sidney for consistently supplying links to credible official sites for details and insight into interpretations of ISO Standards clauses and methods and techniques of auditing those Standards which can be used by in-house auditors as well as third party auditors.

Sidney - a personal thanks from me on your continual sharing of information. Your contributions are invaluable!!

Thank you, guys.

I dont really understand quite what the point is of the 'output matters' article, other than what the title says - output does of course matter.

How many times we heard the bs that you could make concrete life jackets and still comply with ISO 9001? How many times we heard the bs that certified suppliers keep sending junk?
I think the paper tries to drive the message that the system and the certification must mean something. That auditors can no longer hide and claim that audits are just a snapshot, a random check, that there is no relationship between complying with ISO 9001 and delivering "quality" products.

If the system is not effective in delivering customer satisfaction, (in the long run) it should not be certified.

 

[Colin]

Re: ISO offers free-of-charge ISO 9001:2000 'auditing kit'

If the system is not effective in delivering customer satisfaction, (in the long run) it should not be certified.

Sidney, how I agree with you! Problem is, at least in the UK, no CB's (Registrars) have the bottle to consistently do that because it is not in their financial interests to do so.

I know of a few examples where the organisation has lost its certificate through not complying with the system e.g. stopped doing internal audits but none where the auditor has said "your product/service does not consistently satisfy customers, therefore we are taking away your registration".

It would take some guts by the auditor and seriously test the CB's top management when it came to backing him/her, but I would love to see it.

 

[Wes Bucey]

Re: ISO offers free-of-charge ISO 9001:2000 'auditing kit'

In the financial auditing world, auditors send out sample surveys to customers and suppliers to determine if the books of the auditee match actual transactions.

Forensic audits, of course, are even more detailed. As a potential auditee, I would find it difficult to justify a reason to prevent my QMS auditor from sending out sample surveys to customers to determine if such a survey matches my own sense of customer satisfaction. Depending on the nature and size of the customer base, such surveys could range from simple phone calls to written surveys sent to a sample via "signature requested" delivery (mail, FEDEX, UP, etc.)

Customers who demand registration of a supply chain could hardly refuse to respond to such a survey, especially if inoculated that "failure to respond" would be viewed as hypocritical by a customer concerned that its supply chain be registered.

 

[tyker]

Re: ISO offers free-of-charge ISO 9001:2000 'auditing kit'

Sidney, how I agree with you! Problem is, at least in the UK, no CB's (Registrars) have the bottle to consistently do that because it is not in their financial interests to do so.

I know of a few examples where the organisation has lost its certificate through not complying with the system e.g. stopped doing internal audits but none where the auditor has said "your product/service does not consistently satisfy customers, therefore we are taking away your registration".

It would take some guts by the auditor and seriously test the CB's top management when it came to backing him/her, but I would love to see it.

In my days as a third party auditor (BSI and others) I can readily remember two cases where I refused to register organizations because of the product consistently being out of specification and a couple more where I removed registration from organizations for the same reason. Obviously I had to justify my recommendations but, having done so, I had full support from my management. If there is a problem, I contend it lies with weak auditors.

 

[Sidney Vianna]

Re: ISO offers free-of-charge ISO 9001:2000 'auditing kit'

It would take some guts by the auditor and seriously test the CB's top management when it came to backing him/her, but I would love to see it.

It will only happen if the users of certificates start demanding it. Until the accreditation/certification/registrations bodies are forced to chose between the (less than serious) paying customers and the actual users of the certificates, status quo prevails.

 

[Helmut Jilling]

Re: ISO offers free-of-charge ISO 9001:2000 'auditing kit'

OK so long as we 'dont throw the baby out with the bathwater' on this one I think.

I had a similar chat some time ago with an auditor who works for one of the major certification bodies in the UK. I questioned with him are we losing sight of important processes, such as drawing control and calibration, under the new 'process approach' of ISO9001 and more critically the new perception of 'process auditing' that seems to be permeating the industry. He replied that well under an ISO9001 QMS you would have a process measure (KPI) that should indicate if calibration or document control issues were actually causing you real problems.

Like I say I feel this totally loses the 'preventive' emphasis of any QMS, and indeed the preventive tool that an audit can, and I believe should be.

Also I think it would be impossible to drill down from an overall KPI of lets say percentage returns to be able to conclude it was due to calibration issues.

I must not be understanding your post. For the life of me, I cannot imagine how the ISO process approach can be counterproductive if implemented correctly. All processes must align effectively for the company to reach it's potential. Thus, identifying the important interaction points and measuring their performance should be more enlightening than just measuring the Key indicators.

For example, how many companies are hampered by poor IT support, yet that would rarely show up in the KPI's.

 

[Helmut Jilling]

Re: ISO offers free-of-charge ISO 9001:2000 'auditing kit'

I dont really understand quite what the point is of the 'output matters' article, other than what the title says - output does of course matter.

What we are looking for in a quality system however are 'systematic' methods (processes if you like) that deliver the required output.

The article appears to dissmiss things like the importance of calibration during an audit, and other such details of the QMS - personally I think this is foolhardy.

Lets not forget the overriding purpose of any 'style' of quality management is to prevent things going wrong, i.e. it is proactive in putting in place systems that will prevent us making mistakes, it is not reactive to outputs of systems when we do make mistakes. Therefore one of the objectives of audit to ensure that those preventive measures are effective and are being operated is a very valid and important management tool.

It appears that the article suggests we revert to old style QC inspection routines with our audit programme, and just measure output - so long as its OK, based on a very limited sample that we observe today, then why worry about how it was achieved - ridiculous !!!!!!!!!!!!

I respectfully suggest you perhaps did not get the intent of that article. I thought it was a bit light in content, but certainly moved forward, not backwards. It had nothing to do with QC. It was about processes are not effective unless their outputs are effective. It was also a heads up to auditors to check that. I teach auditors to start with the metrics when prepping every audit. What does the report card say about how this process is performing. It will direct and focus the audit toward those areas where performance is less effective, making the audit more value added.

 

[Sidney Vianna]

Re: ISO offers free-of-charge ISO 9001:2000 'auditing kit'

Two recent additions to the auditing guidance papers:

• Guidance on Cultural Aspects of Auditing
• Output Matters!

Please note that the expression "output matters" is also the subject of an ANAB Advisory Notice:

(broken link removed)

And the latest paper from the ISO APG is Auditing the Procurement and Supply Chain Processes