ISO 9001 certified by second party

[Polly Pure Bread]

That's very true and regretable! I'd offer to suggest that it's also common to find those posts here simply because the auditee (poster) isn't as familiar with the situation as they should/could be! As a result, they are not in a position to deal with the (incorrect) nature of the auditor's finding or are unwilling/unable to 'push back', when it's clearly wrong. We often respond 'did you sicuss this/seek clarification before the auditor left..?"

Yes, CB auditors get it wrong, but they'd get less wrong, if more clients were confident about their systems......

Maybe because clients don’t like to sound complaining on CB's performance otherwise they may end up with unfavorable audit results.

 

[AndyN]

Maybe because clients don’t like to sound complaining on CB's performance otherwise they may end up with unfavorable audit results.

There's big difference between 'complaining' and having a dialog with an auditor! If the dialog doesn't resolve the situation, then it should be continued with the CB's Operations management......

Let's be real here. If a raw material supplier delivered any less than what was expected, you wouldn't mind sending the stuff back 'for fear of being sent more..'

Because clients 'roll over' and are not prepared to deal with such situations is one of the reasons that ISO certification is viewed cynically in some areas....

 

[Polly Pure Bread]

There's big difference between 'complaining' and having a dialog with an auditor!

It depends upon auditor and auditor’s mood. Experience has shown me this so far.

 

[AndyN]

It depends upon auditor and auditor’s mood. Experience has shown me this so far.

Then, I'd suggest you ask the CB for a less 'moody' auditor! Our industry has (in general) to kick up its customer service a number of notches.......it starts with robust customer feedback. If you accept mediocre service, that's what you'll get.....

 

[Polly Pure Bread]

'Customer is always right' doesn’t apply here.

 

[AndyN]

'Customer is always right' doesn’t apply here.

You need another CB, then...........end of story!

 

[Sidney Vianna]

There's big difference between 'complaining' and having a dialog with an auditor! If the dialog doesn't resolve the situation, then it should be conintued with the CB's Operations management......

Let's be real here. If a raw material supplier delivered any less than what was expected, you wouldn't mind sending the stuff back 'for fear of being sent more..'

Because clients 'roll over' and are not prepared to deal with such situations is one of the reasons that ISO certification is viewed cynically in some areas....

Excellent analogy in the second paragraph. Agree with this post wholeheartedly.

You need another CB, then...........end of story!

But I disagree with this one. MANY times, customers are not correct. Especially the customers of "management system certification services", who, sometimes expect their auditor to bless, rubber stamp and certify their systems, EVEN when the system fails to comply with the requirements. CB's should focus as much on "user satisfaction" as customer satisfaction. A balanced approach is critical.

Obviously, even when customers are NOT right, they remain the customer.

 

[AndyN]

Excellent analogy in the second paragraph. Agree with this post wholeheartedly. But I disagree with this one. MANY times, customers are not correct. Especially the customers of "management system certification services", who, sometimes expect their auditor to bless, rubber stamp and certify their systems, EVEN when the system fails to comply with the requirements. CB's should focus as much on "user satisfaction" as customer satisfaction. A balanced approach is critical.

Obviously, even when customers are NOT right, they remain the customer.

In this context, Sidney, the auditors are clearly wrong - we were discussing those erroneous audit findings, which clients acquiesce to, rather than deal with - or deal with the auditor.

I've had experience (as a consultant) with clients of a range of CBs who were 'wrong' - in your example - but that wasn't the main theme of this thread.......

 

[Jim Wynne]

Let's be real here. If a raw material supplier delivered any less than what was expected, you wouldn't mind sending the stuff back 'for fear of being sent more..'

Excellent analogy in the second paragraph. Agree with this post wholeheartedly.

While I agree in principle (that customers of CBs need to protest when auditors are wrong) I don't think it's an apt analogy, given the wildly different dynamics of the two situations. If a CB auditor is wrong, you can't bundle him up and send him back along with a debit memo, even figuratively. There's no accounting for the time wasted in trying to get an auditor to retract a finding, and then escalating the issue if the auditor refuses to listen to reason.

Nonetheless, CBs really don't have a good way of telling when auditors are incompetent unless their clients tell them so.

 

[Polly Pure Bread]

In this context, Sidney, the auditors are clearly wrong - we were discussing those erroneous audit findings, which clients acquiesce to, rather than deal with - or deal with the auditor.

I've had experience (as a consultant) with clients of a range of CBs who were 'wrong' - in your example - but that wasn't the main theme of this thread.......

Yes, in that context CB is wrong. But then again it depends upon auditor.
One thing is for sure Sidney is an exceptional auditor.