ISO 9001 certified by second party

[AndyN]

What I am trying to convey is that let say CB auditor told the auditee that this is the finding and this is the clause violated, even if there will be a wash-up meeting (at the end of the audit) before auditor left the auditing organization, audit reports (clauses) are too technical and they still need enough time to provide appropriate answers. They (auditee) usually realized after a day or two that it’s not actually nonconformity and there is a better justification for those findings but failed to provide during the actual audit.

Just a clarification on my previous post, Auditees presumption is that CB Auditors knew the minimum requirements (ISO 9001 standards) better than what they knew, not the organization’s unique processes.

If what you are suggesting is that the auditor didn't point out the non-conformity at the time it was found, or had some discussion with the auditee about their concerns, but waited until the last part of the audit to present it -and then only in technical terms and didn't seek understanding of the auditee - then I refer back to my earlier comment:-

Please, give feedback to your CB about this situation and request another auditor.........

The auditor is supposed to do what I described above.........

 

[Polly Pure Bread]

Yes, and in addition to that, let's remember the ANAB Heads Up # 153. Certification Client Bill of Rights and Responsibilities also.

Hi Sidney,

Thank you for the link. Sorry if I said something wrong about CB auditors. I just used CB Auditors because what I was referring to are CB Auditors but I don’t generalize. Whenever I say something about CB Auditor, I am speaking of specific issue based from specific experience that has shown me.

 

[JaneB]

I do agree with what you say, Andy, in there being a big difference between 'complaining' and having a dialog with an auditor! And yes, if the outcome of the dialogue isn't satisfactory to the auditee personnel, then it should be continued with the CB's Operations management.

We both know that I'm not talking about the kind of 'well, I want you to give us the certificate even though we can't demonstrate all the evidence needed for 9001' kind of topic.

But how very right you are that

Because clients 'roll over' and are not prepared to deal with such situations is one of the reasons that ISO certification is viewed cynically in some areas....

All the reputable and professional CBs I know welcome feedback from their clients - even when it indicates a problem! Because it also gives them a chance to rectify the situation, 're-align' an auditor if need be, beef up the training, whatever...

Auditee will not tell their auditors because they are supposed to know the requirement better than the auditing organization

Mistaken and wrong belief here.

The audited organization doesn't have to know the standard better than the auditor to have enough knowledge to determine the auditor's competence.

Exactly. Or to have an opinion on the auditor's customer service approach or focus (or lack of same)!

It's like anything else, if you're unhappy, then speak up! Speaking up can - and to be effective, should be - done calmly, objectively and politely. But auditing is a service business. If you just roll over and accept substandard poor service, that's what you'll get.

And none of the good and professional firms and auditors like that. At all.