ISO 9001 Clause 7.3 Design and Development for Service Firm

[ISO 9001 Guy]

And sorry, but the advice to "Close design projects only after post mortems have been performed, and lessons learned have been applied" sounds great in theory, but rarely possible or works in practice. At least, in any consulting business I've have ever had to do with.

After the service has been delivered/handed over, it's good to allow some time before closing the project. At least, that's been my experience in plenty of engineering firms and organizations who do both design and installation work. It works very well in many service industries if it's properly applied. Some do it even without hopes of certification just because it's good practice and they have gained value from it. The same principle may apply well to consulting firms. But it's only applied if it's useful.
When I was working for an ISO 9001-certified ISO 9001 consulting firm, it was not uncommon for us to share information with fellow consultants after projects were completed. This information included how different registrars viewed different requirements, for example, or what pitfalls were encountered during the project. (Post mortem.) Audit findings information was added to a database. When a new project came up and a registrar was selected, we could consult the database to discern what buttons the registrar found important.
Oh, and changes. The post mortem is a good time to review project changes, not only to ensure they have all been incorporated/resolved, but to review the nature and volume of changes requested since turning the "product" over to the customer. Sometimes, a pattern can be spotted--the same basic changes were requested from multiple customers--in which case lessons learned can improve the process, if appropriate, so the requested changes become part of the norm, thus eliminating the need to request the changes in the future.

 

[ChrissieO]

Calling her a cow, are you...? Moo...t point, perhaps.

Not at all she is lovely lady and I have learned a lot from her over the years, we do disagree from time to time but 7.3 is one we don't argue over, well lets just say, she has given up mentioning it...........for now

Cxx

 

[JaneB]

After the service has been delivered/handed over, it's good to allow some time before closing the project.... See how that might work in the real world?

Dan, thanks, but it isn't a problem of my not being able to see how it might work....
I'm not disputing how useful it can be, merely the specificity of the particular solution suggested. Perhaps you're proposing a particular model (leave the project open for a while) that other organisations address a different way? ie, one could get the same result by incremental improvements, a culture of continuously raising suggested service improvements (a la ITIL), periodic brainstorming/consultant review & improvement events, etc etc.

 

[ISO 9001 Guy]

Dan, thanks, but it isn't a problem of my not being able to see how it might work....
I'm not disputing how useful it can be, merely the specificity of the particular solution suggested. Perhaps you're proposing a particular model (leave the project open for a while) that other organisations address a different way? ie, one could get the same result by incremental improvements, a culture of continuously raising suggested service improvements (a la ITIL), periodic brainstorming/consultant review & improvement events, etc etc.

"And sorry, but the advice to "Close design projects only after post mortems have been performed, and lessons learned have been applied" sounds great in theory, but rarely possible or works in practice. At least, in any consulting business I've have ever had to do with."

Sorry, Jane, from the above statement, I thought perhaps you hadn't seen it work well in practice. I've seen it work well and it's very often a good thing to do. People often do it informally, but it makes good sense at the end of a project to look back at the performance on that project to determine if improvements to the process can be made.

 

[JaneB]

Yes, of course post-project reviews are a good thing - any formal project management course and body of knowledge recgonises that. But let's not confuse the desired objectivewith a particular method. There's so often many, many ways to achieve a given objective.

In many of the consulting & software firms, they have many dozens (if not many more) of projects on the go at all times, whereas perhaps some or a lot of engineering / construction firms & the like tend to have only a few very large ones. In many firms I've worked in / consulted to, the very last thing they'd want to do is to leave a project open. eg, closing often means something in billing terms (final bill due) for example, or there are so many projects, that there are other more suitable ways of achieving the desired outcome.

 

[sms4u]

Hello

As I was reading this thread so a question arises in my mind. I dont have any reply to this thread but I have a confusion. Hope My confusion will get clear here.

My organization provides consultant to the other companies. and our product is their services. Some time they reviews the design and approve it for further action. So can anybody suggest me what records I should maintain for (7.3) Design and Development at the time of audit.

 

[John Broomfield]

Hello

As I was reading this thread so a question arises in my mind. I dont have any reply to this thread but I have a confusion. Hope My confusion will get clear here.

My organization provides consultant to the other companies. and our product is their services. Some time they reviews the design and approve it for further action. So can anybody suggest me what records I should maintain for (7.3) Design and Development at the time of audit.

sms4du,

Providing consultants seems to be your product which is a service.

1. You may design your service to ensure the consultants fulfill the needs of your customers, or
2. You may simply provide resumes for available consultants and the customer chooses the consultant, or
3. Your customer specifies the required abilities, knowledge and skills and you select consultants accordingly.

Service options 2 and 3 mean the customer is responsible for design and you can exclude clause 7.3 unless you want to design the other service aspects of your product (such as recruiting and developing consultants to fulfill the needs of future customers)

When your consultants review and approve designs are they working as part of your management system (per 1 above)? If so, they need to keep the records as specified by your design procedures and your design plans.

And you have previously asked that question on another thread.

If not, your consultants may keep their personal records as professionals and your contracts with them may entitle you to a copy of these records for your archives.

John

 

[sms4u]

Thanks John....

Now it is very clear to me by this reply of yours.

As you mentioned 3 different points. our organization satisfies point 2 and 3. i.e.

1. We simply provide resumes for available consultants and the customer chooses the consultant or some times
2. Our customer specifies the required abilities, knowledge and skills and We select consultants accordingly.

Moreover Our consultant reviews the design on the site. It is no way connected to our management system.





So Eventually I can say that We can exclude Clause 7.3 from our QMS.


As we provide Computers and other equipments, I have to include clause 7.6 - Control of Monitoring and Measuring Equipments in our QMS.

 

[sms4u]

Still waiting for Comments on last post...

 

[John Broomfield]

sms4du,

Study clause 1.2 and you may see that you can exclude clause 7.6 too.

John