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ISO 9001 - Gigantic waste or Beneficial? Why does ISO 9001 exist? Got data/facts?

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damian

#1
If ever proof were needed as to how non-value adding ISO 9000 is, one need look no further than this forum. To see such a huge expenditure of time and energy spent over the interpretation and application of clauses and requirements, certification issues, approaches and the like - all of which adds little if any value to the customer - shows why acceptance of this standard is now floundering. Pure muda!
 

Marc

Captain Nice
Staff member
Admin
#2
Were that it were all that simple. What do you base your comment on? Have you numbers or other evidence to show or is one to accept your opinion?
 
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D.Scott

#4
Hi Damian - welcome to the Cove.

Your point is quite common on this and other threads but we always seem to come back to the same questions on this topic.
1) Is it the Standard which is causing the problem or is it the bureaucracy surrounding it?
2) Isn't there a benefit of a good QMS to both company and customer?
3) Is the acceptance of the Standard really floundering or is the certification process floundering.

Good post and good subject - I await some input from the others on this.

Take a look through some of the other topics - there are some great discussions on this and related topics.

Dave
 
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damian

#5
Marc said:
Were that it were all that simple. What do you base your comment on? Have you numbers or other evidence to show or is one to accept your opinion?

Why did you bother to register? Why are you here?
Sorry, I think it is that simple. All that really counts is the core process that converts the needs of customers into cash in the bank. The organization and its system should all be helping the core process to add value faster (for customers) and prevent losses sooner (for investors). I don't see how demonstrating conformity to requirements, expending energy trying to figure out what clauses or requirements mean to satisfy a certification body, or working to achieve local optimization via a "process approach," in any way shape or form adds value.
 

Marc

Captain Nice
Staff member
Admin
#6
D.Scott said:
1) Is it the Standard which is causing the problem or is it the bureaucracy surrounding it?
2) Isn't there a benefit of a good QMS to both company and customer?
3) Is the acceptance of the Standard really floundering or is the certification process floundering.
Good summary, Dave! There is also the added dimension of Chris Parrish's 'petition' to the ISO folks to do something about falling numbers of 'new' registrations... :notme: Maybe I ought to do a For It - Against It poll...
 
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damian

#7
Marc said:
Good summary, Dave! There is also the added dimension of Chris Parrish's 'petition' to the ISO folks to do something about falling numbers of 'new' registrations... :notme: Maybe I ought to do a For It - Against It poll...

Why are registrations and their numbers even important? What do registrations have to do with value? Why do people even expend energy monitoring ISO 9000 registration trends that as if it were some sort of "seal of approval" on the value of the standard. Is not the only real measure the customer and how well their needs have been met?
 

Marc

Captain Nice
Staff member
Admin
#8
damian said:
Sorry, I think it is that simple. All that really counts is the core process that converts the needs of customers into cash in the bank. The organization and its system should all be helping the core process to add value faster (for customers) and prevent losses sooner (for investors). I don't see how demonstrating conformity to requirements, expending energy trying to figure out what clauses or requirements mean to satisfy a certification body, or working to achieve local optimization via a "process approach," in any way shape or form adds value.
This is an arguement I and many others have made for years - Nothing new here. ISO 9001 is basically just good business practices that most companies already have 'implemented' in some fashion. Most have some form of customer satisfaction barometer even if it's not a documented system, for example.

To deviate from Dave's path, The question becomes: Why is there an ISO 9001?

Why is it you believe ISO 9001 exists and continues to thrive (in my opinion it's doing quite well in world wide acceptance)?
 
D

damian

#9
Marc said:
Were that it were all that simple. What do you base your comment on? Have you numbers or other evidence to show or is one to accept your opinion?

Why did you register? Why are you here?
The only data that one really needs to know is that ISO 9000, like most other improvement fads or programs, has failed to significantly transform the majority of companies which have adopted it. ISO 9000 certiifcation would appear to be going through a similar life cycle of initial interest-acceptance-dissatisfaction-decline that most other programs have gone through. In the case of certification, acceptance was primarily driven by customer requirements to conform, not by the inherent value that organizations were deriving from implementing the standard.

Even the ISO 9000 variant QS-9000/TS 16949 is not immune. I have seen so many suppliers in automotive with QS certification that continue to operate with the 1920 techniques of mass production. These companies are perfectly compliant to QS even though their dpm ratings hit 75,000 each qtr at their customer (that's 7.5% for those not familiar with dpm). ISO/TS 16949 makes small strides towards a lean-based production paradigm but there is still no guidance to the reduction of muda or the addition of value in the supply chain. It's no wonder Toyota is now number two - and they don't use ISO 9000.
 
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#10
Hi Damian and welcome to the Cove :bigwave:

damian said:
To see such a huge expenditure of time and energy spent over the interpretation and application of clauses and requirements, certification issues, approaches and the like
Not quite true imo: Yes, we do discuss those subjects, but we are also adressing issues we would have had to deal with even if the ISO9000 series had never been released.

damian said:
- all of which adds little if any value to the customer - shows why acceptance of this standard is now floundering. Pure muda!
Also not true imo: We all know that ISO9001 is far from perfect, and I would happily throw it out if (and here is the catch) you can show me a better alternative... No Sir, I will not let you off that easily. Slinging mud at ISO 9001 is a very popular pastime these days, but unless you can provide an alternative, I will not pay all that much attention to your claim.

I keep asking people for an alternative, but thus far I have seen very few ansvers to that question. So what do you suggest?

/Claes
 
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