ISO 9001 - Gigantic waste or Beneficial? Why does ISO 9001 exist? Got data/facts?

[damian]

I see no point in your post. Many more companies, I suspect, without ISO have gone down the tubes. I've seen ISO help some companies - especially during implementation. With some I've seen it to be nothing but an added 'cost of doing business'. That doesn't mean the standard is inherently bad.

I'll state what I stated earlier - ISO 9001 is just some good business system basics which most companies address in one way or another whether registered or not.

So again, damien, I think we all agree. ISO can be bad and it can be good. That's not a very good reason to dismiss and condemn it in its entirety.

If the only, or the most significant, waste in a business is ISO 9001 'costs', it would be quite an unusual business.

I don't believe that's the majority case. I've never before even heard anyone say ISO 9001 was or is a substitute for 'thinking'. I've known a lot of people who have said it makes people think. I myself believe implementations promote thinking. I also wonder why you use the word 'frightening'. What scares you? Is it the end of the world if some companies don't understand that ISO is a model and will typically not save a failing business?

Of course its a substitute for thinking and learning. Look at the statement by Claes: "What's the alternative [to ISO 9000]?". This is about the most stupid statement I have heard and shows how much the mind of some in the ISO community has been numbed by slavish adherence to prescriptive requirements. This statement implies that there has to be "something" - whether we call it ISO 9000, Six Sigma or whatever is immaterial, but the need for a program, a fix, a prescribed solution is so endemic that people have forgotten what it means to think and learn, either individually or collectively. The people who built great production systems (i.e., Ford, Ohno, etc.) did it with their own brainpower, combined with that of their co-workers - not with programs,consultants and registrars. Ohno himself said the only thing you need is an inquisitive mind. The great companies are the ones who's employees think and learn together and are aligned towards a common goal - a culture of learning and continual improvement. If you think you need a program or ISO 9000 to do this, you've missed the mark entirely.

 

[RoxaneB]

Of course its a substitute for thinking and learning. Look at the statement by Claes: "What's the alternative [to ISO 9000]?". This is about the most stupid statement I have heard and...

There is no need to insult anyone here, Damian. You yourself admitting to 'coming in peace'. (see next quote)

I feel sorry for you that you perceive any attack on ISO 9000 as a hostile one.

...shows how much the mind of some in the ISO community has been numbed by slavish adherence to prescriptive requirements. This statement implies that there has to be "something" - whether we call it ISO 9000, Six Sigma or whatever is immaterial, but the need for a program, a fix, a prescribed solution is so endemic that people have forgotten what it means to think and learn, either individually or collectively.

Isn't TPS a program? I'm gathering the overall gist of it is to assist in the overhauling of wasteful activities. Is there not some sort of protocol to be followed in order to identify, track, control, and disposition such activities? Wouldn't this protocol consist of requirements to ensure proper identification, tracking, control and disposition?

The people who built great production systems (i.e., Ford, Ohno, etc.) did it with their own brainpower, combined with that of their co-workers - not with programs,consultants and registrars. Ohno himself said the only thing you need is an inquisitive mind. The great companies are the ones who's employees think and learn together and are aligned towards a common goal - a culture of learning and continual improvement. If you think you need a program or ISO 9000 to do this, you've missed the mark entirely.

Good for them for doing it on their own! Now, for those who did not manage to think it up on their own, don't you think it would very non-muda of them to sit down and try to reinvent the wheel? If the system exists out there, why should they think of it by themselves? I thank them for their creativity and appreciate it...there's no need for me to develop a method for CI, when someone's already thought up the widely used PDCA methodology.

Yes, a culture of learning and CI is a wonderful thing to have. Does being registered to ISO 9001 mean you've suddenly got that culture? There is no magic fairy wand that waves over our heads and says "WHAM! You will now learn and continually improve!" (if only it were that easy). I'm sure that TPS, as impressive as it sounds now, did not have immediate results over night.

ISO 9001 within an organization is an evolutionary process. If you have taken the time to read other posts throughout the Cove, Damian, you will have noticed multiple threads expressing frustration, anger, confusion and general uncertainty regarding the Standard. Odds are, when Toyota first started implementing TPS, learning about it, communicating it, etc., there were a lot of similar feelings.

Overtime, TPS has helped your organization to align itself to a management system that has shown, I'm assuming, obvious benefits. Overtime, registration to ISO 9002:1994 and now ISO 9001:2000 has helped my organization to control our methods for standardizing, controlling, monitoring, measuring, and improving....all aspects of our Business Management System. Did we need ISO? Probably not. Did ISO help us? Definately yes.

 

[Puzzle]

This statement implies that there has to be "something" - whether we call it ISO 9000, Six Sigma or whatever is immaterial

Getting a bit religious in context here, IMHO.

This has now become an extremely boring thread

Has someone activated an 'echo' button?

 

[mshell]

Look, Gang,

Damian seems to add nothing different or more informative with each successive post.

Damian also apparently ignores other's responses and queries.

My suggestion: stop replying to this thread. End it right here!

We have better topics about which to expend our energy.

This is the only thread that damian has participated in and he has not offered any evidence to support his perception of ISO. Nor has he responded to any of the questions about TPS.

 

[Marc]

Of course its a substitute for thinking and learning.

What ever you say.

 

[David Hartman]

Of course its a substitute for thinking and learning.

How can we learn if we have no teacher? I am now beginning to wonder if you truly understand TPS enough to be able to provide us with even a basic understanding of how and why it works.

It is amost as if it is your sole purpose here to take credit for working for an organization that through the efforts of men like Ohno have established a process (and yes no matter what lofty terms you use, it is merely a process) that has been proven to be benefitial to that organization. But what have YOU contributed to that process, and can you share in your knowledge to the point that others can benefit from it, or is it your desire to merely set on the sidelines and throw stones?

If throwing stones is what you're all about, I not only not interested - but I see your input to this entire thread as muda!

Either offer real help, or don't waste my time with your trite remarks.

 

[WALLACE]

Take a giraffe view

Damian,
Do you work in the automotive field?
I for one, respect your right to an opinion yet, we (Many) at the Cove have from time to time (As you evidently have) become entrenched in a position and, have come under siege. The :truce: emoticon is a good start Damian.
I'm not going to run all over your views. We at the cove reserve the right to (Respectfully) disagree with views according to our perception or ingrained knowledge through either, education or real world experiences.
I would like to know more about your working environment Damian. Your views alone re-ISO9001, I find intriguing and, I would sincerely wish to know why you are apparently an opponent of the ISO 9001 culture.
I don't particularly have a love affair with ISO9001 yet, I do see that, the management system that is evident throughout the standard and associated documents of reference advocate the beginings of systems thinking as a foundational principal for profound knowledge.
I look forward to your reply.
Wallace.

 

[Claes Gefvenberg]

Look at the statement by Claes: "What's the alternative [to ISO 9000]?". This is about the most stupid statement I have heard and shows how much the mind of some in the ISO community has been numbed by slavish adherence to prescriptive requirements.

Quite right. That was a stupid. I tried to have a constructive discussion with you. Very stupid... I have now given up on that (See, I'm getting smarter already). I don't mind being stupid though, because one of these days I may get lucky and ask a clever question, while you on the other hand always will remain Damian.

This statement implies that there has to be "something" - whether we call it ISO 9000, Six Sigma or whatever is immaterial, but the need for a program, a fix, a prescribed solution is so endemic that people have forgotten what it means to think and learn, either individually or collectively.

I never said that. You did... What it rather does imply is that we all need to think and learn, both individually and collectively. You should try it sometime, and throw in a bit of modesty at the same time.

This little quote from Toyota Canada's website may help:

Respecting people is a commitment that Toyota takes very seriously. This commitment includes respect for all stakeholders including Team Members, customers, suppliers, the community and shareholders.

It must be lovley to work there...

/Claes

 

[Marc]

The thread has some good content so it stands, but we don't need problems like we not so long ago experienced where things became very personal.

Next week is a new week. Other threads will rise. Let's let this one die a quick death.

 

[Randy]

Maybe this damien dude (remember the movies Omen I, II, & III) can develop something better. Seeing as he knows it all, it shouldn't be too, too hard.

How about it damien deary?

Damien,
Common courtesy is to politely enter into conversation when asked or provided opportunity to enter ones home or group or whatever, it's not to start slinging fecal material around to try and prove how "sharp" you are.