ISO 9001 Implementation and Certification - 6 Years of Advice

[Stijloor]

Re: ISO 9001 Implementation and Certification - Some advice

The consultants I know have not dropped their prices, especially to one quarter. I have noticed they are not raising them in the current economy.

That is correct. I have not lowered my consulting fees either.

Stijloor.

 

[Helmut Jilling]

Re: ISO 9001 Implementation and Certification - Some advice

That is correct. I have not lowered my consulting fees either.

Stijloor.

In fact, not lowered, and I am busier than before. This is a difficult time, and companies are realizing they must improve their performance and position themselves correctly for the recovery. In the coming 12-24 months, more companies will ahve opportunity to gain market share than in the last 5-10 years. Also, more companies will fail or experience difficult situations than did during the downturn. Those that are positioned and ready should do very well.

 

[NewQM]

Re: ISO 9001 Implementation and Certification - Some advice

You've given good advice about starting small etc, but this bit is bad advice - you are promoting a (mis)understanding that all that's required by the Standard is 6 procedures. Not true, and indicates a failure to grasp what the documentation requirements actually call for.

The standard only *specifically* requires 6 documented procedures. While it is true that more are generally needed, only 6 HAVE to be in place. If you will read my post closeley, you will see that i suggested STARTING with the 6 required.

When reading the standard, highlight the phrase "A documented procedure shall be established to define requirements for..."

you will see it only 6 times.

again, i only suggested starting with the 6, i never meant to imply leaving it at that is the best option....

you will see i also suggested to pay close attention to their design procedure.

Thank you for the comments,

James

 

[JaneB]

Re: ISO 9001 Implementation and Certification - Some advice

James,

My posting was not a failure to read your post 'closely'. With respect, I've seen this kind of 'you only need 6 procedures' misinformation many many times before. And the poor results it brings.

I stand by what I wrote.

To start with those procedures? Nope.
Absolutely not. I repeat: bad advice. I not infrequently with clients have them sort out their Doc Control procedure early on (so other documents will be controlled as they develop them) but there's infinitely more important things to focus on, like their core processes (not procedures yet!) and their objectives (what are they aiming to achieve?).

I can understand why the kind of idea you're suggesting proliferates, because the way the Standard is written makes understanding the real requirements for documentation somewhat confusing - particularly for new and inexperienced people. Promulgating the idea that 'all you need is 6 where it says shall' is a simplistic understanding and poor advice.

I wrote in this post in 'What Should Be Changed in ISO 9001:2014?' a suggested revision to express the the documentation requirements more clearly and avoid such common misunderstandings.

 

[NewQM]

Re: ISO 9001 Implementation and Certification - Some advice

James,

My posting was not a failure to read your post 'closely'. With respect, I've seen this kind of 'you only need 6 procedures' misinformation many many times before. And the poor results it brings.

I stand by what I wrote.

To start with those procedures? Nope.
Absolutely not. I repeat: bad advice. I not infrequently with clients have them sort out their Doc Control procedure early on (so other documents will be controlled as they develop them) but there's infinitely more important things to focus on, like their core processes (not procedures yet!) and their objectives (what are they aiming to achieve?).

I can understand why the kind of idea you're suggesting proliferates, because the way the Standard is written makes understanding the real requirements for documentation somewhat confusing - particularly for new and inexperienced people. Promulgating the idea that 'all you need is 6 where it says shall' is a simplistic understanding and poor advice.

I wrote in this post in 'What Should Be Changed in ISO 9001:2014?' a suggested revision to express the the documentation requirements more clearly and avoid such common misunderstandings.

To each their own....

If you will read the original question, he says that they want certification in order to get contracts. while this is not the ideal, it is the truth.

Respectfully, i stand by the advice i have given. For someone new to writing a QMS...this is a good way (again, not the only way) to start.


I know we don't like to admit it, but for a lot of companies, they aren't looking for a QMS; they are looking for a certificate on the wall. From the original post, that is what i gather this design firm is looking for.

 

[Sidney Vianna]

Re: ISO 9001 Implementation and Certification - Some advice

Promulgating the idea that 'all you need is 6 where it says shall' is a simplistic understanding and poor advice.

Yes, Jane. It is disheartening that we still have a high percentage of consultants who see and promote ISO 9001 implementation via the despicable "say-what-you-do-do-what-you-say" approach, rather than the intended plan-do-check-act cycle.
ISO 9001 implementation and certification has been trivialized by many, so it can be "commoditized", packaged, sold and bought with canned approaches, faster, cheaper, easier.

The suckers organizations get the seal on the wall, the ticket to trade, but are not an iota better, in terms of customer satisfaction and cost of non-quality at the end of the engagement.

 

[somerqc]

Re: ISO 9001 Implementation and Certification - Some advice

As much as I agree with JaneB et al, the harsh reality is that many, many companies simply as the wrong question. What do I have to do to get ISO registered? (well, most of them use "certified").

I try to answer that question by asking them "what do you do on any given day?", "Does it work?". Usually the 2nd question is "most of the time". So I start with looking that their processes for gaps (usually communication gaps), fix those, and move forward.

Unfortunately, many just want the wallpaper and that approach (although will result in better system) is too slow for them so the "6 procedures" approach lives.

Sad but true.

 

[NewQM]

Re: ISO 9001 Implementation and Certification - Some advice

via the despicable "say-what-you-do-do-what-you-say" approach,

why despicable? would you prefer to go in and "shake things up?"

If a company has been succesfull without a certification, why go in and change everything?

Why not just set up the documentation and let them ease into it?

This is why so many companies are nervous about setting up a QMS...consultants with a god complex and a "my way or the highway" approach to the QMS....

When companies receive a cert from us, we routinely hear something to the effect of: "we had another consultant that came in and tried to change everything because ISO REQUIRED IT"

HA! Requires what?!?that consultant was fired, we were hired.

If it isn't broken, don't fix it.

there are much less invasive measures with which to improve customer satisfaction/cost of quality, etc.

 

[Sidney Vianna]

Re: ISO 9001 Implementation and Certification - Some advice

why despicable?

Because, IN THE VAST MAJORITY OF CASES, that is the approach which obviously brings no changes to the organization at hand. And, in general, no changes mean maintenance of substandard performance.

In my experience, the VAST MAJORITY of organizations require a profound cultural change to adapt and adopt the underlying concepts of an ISO 9001 based QMS.

Sure, if you have a high performing organization, which is culturally compatible with modern quality management practices, you might have a case for minimal impact onto them. But, if this organization is so good to start with, why would they be running a tribal-knowledge based, undocumented QMS? If they are so good, why would a customer require a non-value added certification?

 

[JaneB]

Re: ISO 9001 Implementation and Certification - Some advice

If you will read the original question, he says that they want certification in order to get contracts.

That's not what I read from the original question here. He said they needed it for one client, but did acknowledge that as not ideal. To leap from that as 'they are looking for a certificate on the wall'? Not sure how you made that jump.

You see, the real power of ISO 9001 is way beyond 'write up 6 mandatory procedures'. So to advise someone that that's where they should start is akin to telling someone who wants to learn to drive to memorise the parking distances... yes, it's needed, but it's not all there is and there's oh, so much more.

i stand by the advice i have given. For someone new to writing a QMS...this is a good way (again, not the only way) to start.

If the question had been - how do I go about documenting our system, just possibly (and I'm being overly charitable because that old '6 procedures' canned stuff ain't good). It wasn't.

As Sidney said so elegantly:

ISO 9001 implementation and certification has been trivialized by many, so it can be "commoditized", packaged, sold and bought with canned approaches, faster, cheaper, easier.

The suckers organizations get the seal on the wall, the ticket to trade, but are not an iota better, in terms of customer satisfaction and cost of non-quality at the end of the engagement.

And the fundamentally important thing is that the organisation is better off improved!! as a result of undertaking ISO 9001. Not just 'same ol, same ol, but got the cert on the wall' garbage.

Just whack in a few mandatory procedures and 'ease into it'? Nope. Seen what that does. Usually gives people a very false idea about what "ISO 9001' is really about and cheeses them off. And then it takes a while for them to understand what's really available.

This is why so many companies are nervous about setting up a QMS...consultants with a god complex and a "my way or the highway" approach to the QMS....

None of the consultants of any integrity who write in here regularly have a God complex or a 'my way or the highway approach'. Including me. But yes, we do care, passionately, about real quality, not the commoditised, watered-down, paint-by-numbers-just-do-6-mandatory-procedures garbage.

When companies receive a cert from us

Huh? Is the meaning of 'us' that you're from a certifying company? Your name says your'e a 'NewQM' and your profile lists you as a Quality Manager. Are you neither of those?

As for the 'ain't broken, don't fix', as Sidney says so well:

Because, IN THE VAST MAJORITY OF CASES, that is the approach which obviously brings no changes to the organization at hand. And, in general, no changes mean maintenance of substandard performance.

In my experience, the VAST MAJORITY of organizations require a profound cultural change to adapt and adopt the underlying concepts of an ISO 9001 based QMS.

Mine too.

If they are so good, why would a customer require a non-value added certification?

Precisely. Customers want the benefits that certification is supposed to - and should - bring.

Following the '6 procedures' approach devalues that and detracts from it.